Judah & Tamar: Repentance & Repair (Genesis 38)

Join hosts Denise and Kyla as they examine the narrative of Genesis 38. What does this often skipped passage teach us about wrestling with difficult scriptures? What does it reveal about generational trauma? What does it offer on the notions of covenant and conversion? And how does Judah model sincere Biblical repentance? All of this and more in this episode!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Shalom and welcome back to another episode of Good Fruit, Good Root. I'm your host, Kyla. And I'm your host, Denise. And it's been a little bit of a whirlwind since the last time we recorded, hasn't it, Pastor? Yes, whirlwind. Whirlwind is the word of the day.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah, it's just beginning to describe it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um there there have been good things, there have been not so good things. It's uh we've just run the gamut of the human experience since the last time we recorded. It feels like it's been a long time. It really does since we last recorded because we recorded an episode in advance.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

And yeah, and so a lot a lot of life has transpired between the last recording and this. Yes has. Yeah. So how how are you doing? Let's start there.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

I'm doing well considering the schedule I've had over the past few days. Yeah. I'm I'm very, I'm very tired today, but I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Everything's I'm also tired, probably a little bit less tired than you. Uh I feel like a couple of days ago I probably had I'd cornered the market on who got to be more tired, but now I think you've you've surpassed me um in that regard. But uh yeah, when we when we last recorded, we were looking forward to uh the week in which I would be visiting Shay, and then we'd be celebrating my birthday. Um and then uh over the course of that week, very sadly, a dear family friend of ours passed away. And so I was driving back from visiting Shay and called you to let you know I was on the road, and you were like, Well, I've got to fly to Tifton at some point in the next few days to do this funeral. And so we we went through the the tumultuous, uh arduous task of trying to figure out how to make all of our travel arrangements work, and we we ended up being able to passably do it, where we went to Indianapolis to celebrate my birthday, and then you flew from Indianapolis to Tifton on Saturday night. I drove all night from Indianapolis back to where we are located, not not slipping, not telling you guys our full info or anything. But I drove all night back here and then um preached Sunday morning. So Sunday afternoon, I was very, very tired. And Sunday afternoon I also was very, very angry because I could not nap when I first got home.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Don't you hate that? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

And I was like, I'm I genuinely felt. Do you ever have you ever felt this way where like you're so tired you can't sleep? Uh-huh. Like you've looped all the way back around. That's that's where I was at Sunday afternoon. But finally, after a few hours, um, I was able to doze off a little bit. Um, and then yeah, you preached the funeral Monday morning.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Right. Yeah, Monday morning. Um got there Sunday evening. By the time I flew and caught a shuttle, then caught a ride with speeding Maribella. Uh, let's see, I got there in time to just really eat dinner and go to bed. And then got up the next morning, had to be at the visitation, and then of course, um preach the funeral and uh do all that stuff Monday. And then yesterday uh took my mom to the doctor, which is an hour and a half away, and uh saw the grandbabies, and this morning up at four, caught the flight, you picked me up at Dulles, and here we are.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

And then it's been just you know getting up and driving to Dulles is the worst possible way I can think of to start a day. Like it just is not it's there's no part of that task that's enjoyable at all. But you got me. I did get you, so I guess it was worth it. Um but yeah, so all that to say we are both a little bit tired. We're we are typically busy people, we enjoy being on the go, but the past week and a half or so has been like crazy even for us.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

On the go on steroids. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

You know how Mama Golden used to say my get up and go, got up and went. Yeah. We're like the opposite of that. Like we've done nothing but get up and go. Yeah. That's that's so true. But um, you know, in in light of there having been, you know, loss and tragedy and everything, it's we also had some really good times over the past over the past week or so. Um, I'm so so thankful for the opportunity to get to go visit Shay and see her. Um, we we we we went back to some of our old haunts, you know, ate at some locations that were our favorite G World places to dine at. Um, and just to get to, you know, spend some quality time with her. We literally did nothing other than eat and watch television and movies and like help prepare for her to move. And that that was the perfect way to spend those few days. So that was really nice. Um, and then of course we we went to Indianapolis, and this will eventually lead up to the Godwink of the week, which it's it's my turn. So I've I've got one on tap ready to go. But before I get to that, I need to explain just how exciting this trip was. I mean, we um we were able to attend, you know, Indiana Fever basketball game, and uh prior to the game, I had the idea of, oh, let's let's make some signs and see if we can get on the Jumbotron or if we can, you know, get the attention of anyone with our signs. And so throughout the course of the game, we weren't able to get attention, but I I had a sign because I wore shoes that were Aliyah Boston's Adidas Ps, her player edition. And I, you know, it's it's now a trend for people to try to get game-worn shoes from players. And so I thought to make a sign that said, like, hey A B, I'm already wearing your shoes, but could I please get some game-worn ones also? Um, and then I was like, I need something visually to appeal to her to grab her attention. So I put a photo of her dog, Ozzy, and said, ask with Ozzy's puppy dog eyes. Um, and so near near the conclusion of the game, I was like, let me let me walk over and see if I can get near enough to the players that maybe I could get her attention. And lo and behold, through a series of fortunate events. Very fortunate, uh, there was a a gentleman who worked security at the stadium at Gambridge Field House, um, whom we had befriended last year at an all-star event. And he happened to be near the tunnel, and he let me up front uh and helped me get Aaliyah Boston's attention. And we had a very funny, very just unforgettable interaction, and she did give me her shoes. Um, so I walked away with the best possible souvenir, and she signed them and she signed them both. I didn't ask her to sign them. She very graciously was like, Do you have a Sharpie? Like, I'll sign them for you. And then she signed one and she looked down, she's like, I'm gonna go ahead and sign them both. Um, so I have two autographed Aaliyah Boston Adidas game-worn shoes.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

You walked away with two shoes and the biggest grin I've ever seen on your face.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

I was just so excited because I didn't think it was gonna happen. Like it seemed like such a long shot. And so it was just, it was so exciting, perfect, perfect birthday celebration to get Aaliyah Boston's game-worn shoes. And then so many people in the field house were coming up, being like, Whose shoes did you get? And when I told them, they were like, Oh my goodness, like I didn't know she did that. I thought that was only a Caitlin thing. So, so very, very uh privileged and honored to have Aaliyah Boston.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

I really think this may have been the first time she's done that.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah, yeah. So I have the the Aaliyah Boston Game-Worn shoes from the first game that she played, because she didn't play in the other preseason matchup. So that was that was just so, so, so exciting. Um, and interestingly, I was having a conversation with my therapist uh a couple of days ago, and I I told her that story because I just catch her up on you know what's gone on recently in my life. And I told her that story, and she was like, you know, Kyla, that is just such a cool story in and of itself, but I also feel like it's indicative of your growth as a person and like where you are as a human right now. She was like, Because I have watched you over the past couple of years become much more intentional about naming the things that you want and like pursuing the desires that you have. And like the fact that you went and made a sign and made it apparent with the sign, like this is what I'm asking for. And then you received exactly what you asked for. And she's like, I just think that that's really powerful. And my therapist is not religious at all. Um, so she was like, You're you're manifesting. And I was like, Yeah, but I'm like, I'm framing my world with my words. Like I'm I'm verbalizing, putting forward the things that I want to happen. And in doing that, they are happening.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

And so I think that that that's not to over-spiritualize and make me receiving a Leah Boston's shoes a spiritual thing, but I I think that it is, it's interesting that a third party stopped me and was like, I want you to to take a moment and reflect on the fact that this symbolizes growth from you as a person.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, I could I could tie several scriptures in with that that one thing right there. You you made your vision plain. Yeah, you put it on a tablet.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

That's what Habakkuk was talking about. The runner was Aaliyah. Yeah, she was so that she that runs may read it.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yes. That's so true. Wow. Yeah. So, but yeah, um, there's there's so much to learn from that. Um, it's it's it's a spiritual, scriptural principle, but it transcends and translates into everyday life, you know, if if you're if you're not intentional and you don't put forth what you want from life, you won't ever get it.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

So yeah, and I do think it is very fascinating to me that the world is so conceptually invested now in this idea of manifesting and like speaking the things that you want. And it's like we're so close to acknowledging a scriptural principle, but we're not recognizing what it's rooted in. Yeah, they don't realize it's been written down for how long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that is not my Godwink of the week. Um, I partially uh the one of the reasons that I told that story was because in our family, we practice this thing called pit and peak, where at the conclusion of a trip or a movie or you know, any manner, any number of thing that we we do as a family, at the end we'll ask each other, okay, what was your pit and peak? So you acknowledge your least favorite part and your favorite part of whatever experience we just all underwent together. And so at the end of this trip, I looked at you and I was like, okay, what was your pit? What was your peak? And um, your peak was my smile after getting the Aliyah Boston shoes. And I told you that my peak, as exciting and iconic and incredible as getting her shoes was, my peak was something different. And it was something that happened while we were just out and about, bebopping around the city of Indianapolis. We just visited a bakery and we were walking back uh to where our vehicle was. And if you've ever been to Indianapolis, uh at the center point of the city is the Soldier's Monument, which, if you've ever seen the skyline or any photos of Indianapolis, that's normally what is represented. Like, like if you picture Indianapolis, that is the the iconic image of Indianapolis as a soldier's monument. And so I always, anytime we're walking near it, even if it's a little bit out of the way, I'll be like, let's walk by the monument, especially on this trip because the fountains were on and it was just really beautiful. The weather was perfect. Yeah, the weather was perfect. So I looked at you as we were walking and I was like, Do you mind if we cut through at the soldier's monument? And you're like, no, let's do that. So so we walked around and we we came up on the soldiers monument. And I am someone who lived for four years in a major city. So I am someone that when people who are um what's the what's the actual terminology for what they're doing? People who are uh seeking to converse with you about like their charity or nonprofit on the street, there's there's a word for that. Isn't it? I'm sure there is. But all that's coming to my mind right now is busking, which that's not what that is. That's people that are soliciting like money from you, like through a talent or something. But anyways, the people who you know are there representing an organization and they they want your time and they want your donation. And so whenever I see people like that, I just keep moving. Um, and typically mom here is is good at doing the same. But I had to learn to do that. But for whatever reason, uh she she stopped when approached by this young woman on the street of Indianapolis, just below the soldier's monument. And uh so because mom stopped, I stopped. And I was, you know, kind of begrudgingly stopping because like I was on a mission, wanted to get a stir vehicle, we had places to go, people to see. Um, but the this girl, I will say, she was like very personable, very engaging. Yes, very engaging, very um, she was she was a good conversationalist. And so she she started talking to mom and explaining to her, you know, the reason that she believed in the mission of doctors, it was Doctors Without Borders that she was representing. And so the reason she believed in their mission and how um important their mission is in with the current state of affairs in the world. And interestingly, that's what mom and I had just been talking about as we were walking down the street was the state of the world. And so this girl, her name was Alina. Uh, she made her pitch for why we should donate to Doctors Without Borders. But within her pitch, we just started going back and forth, you know, as people and just having a very genuine conversation. And she revealed in the course of that conversation just some things about her personal life and some struggles she was dealing with and how lonely she is having just left home for the first time. And um that she's in her like in a serious relationship right now, and her boyfriend is dealing with the loss of his brother who recently passed away, and that they're both kind of in the infant stages of their faith journey. Like they both have recently found Jesus, and they're they're trying to figure that out as individuals and as a couple. And so we we just had this really lovely conversation, and we had this conversation because she asked what prefix she should put down to for um to like log her conversation with mom. And so she was like, Is it Miss, Mrs. Doctor? And so I said, Reverend. And so then she's like, Oh, do you have a church? And so that's how we got on to matters of faith. And um, so so we we had this whole long conversation and we we did, she she got us, we did end up donating to Doctors Without Borders, but more importantly, um I at the conclusion of the conversation, she asked if we would give her some scriptures for her to mull over and if we would pray with her. And so mom recited scripture for Alina, and then I prayed for her, and just getting to wrap your arms around someone on the streets of Indianapolis and pray with them. It was such a beautiful, moving moment and such a reminder of this is the point. Right. Like this is the whole point of ministry, of the human experience, of all of it is genuine connection and getting to point someone towards Jesus Christ. And so, you know, I was so so committed to trying to get us to a place at a specific time, but I was so glad that that mom stopped and we were able to have this this connection with Alina. And when we when we concluded the prayer, I mean she was crying.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yeah, I think we were all in tears actually, but but she was visibly touched, and you you he manifested, you felt the presence of the Lord right there, and you and you knew we were in a divinely appointed moment.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

So so getting to pray with Alina on the streets of Indianapolis like that, that is that's my God wink of the week.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, I was more I was more proud of you and your God wink. Or you and your peak. That that was my peak. Yeah, but your smile, it was it was killer smile, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

So shout out Alina, shout out Aliyah Boston, all in all, great, great birthday trip and worth it to be a little bit tired this week, I think. Um so the topic that we're gonna be covering today is is very interesting. And I have said before on the pod specifically that this is one of my favorite chapters of scripture. Um, it's one of my favorite stories. It's a very often overlooked story. It's a story that most people either A, don't even know is in scripture, or B, if they do know it's in Scripture, they don't understand why.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

I feel like they've not sat with it at all.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Very few people like actually spend time with this text and investigate this text. Um, and as by now, I think our listeners probably have figured out those are my favorite texts. The ones that are skipped over or the ones that are not understood widely.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah, this one even has some things that's that's awkward.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yes, it does. And I'm glad that you said that because I do want to offer somewhat of a trigger warning, a content warning before we even begin discussing today, because I know some people who listen to our podcast listen in their vehicles with their children. And then additionally, you know, I I don't know the lived experiences of everyone that is listening to this. So I want to say here at the outset, the text we are dealing with today deals with uh concepts relating to human sexuality, and so it it it's topics that you might not want to listen to with your children nearby. Um obviously we will be talking about them in a from a biblical perspective, and we will be we'll be discussing the truth of what is in scripture, but um there we're we're we're not going to be dealing necessarily with sexual violence, but but the role of agency and consent is it it's it's a little muddy. Right. So so if this is a topic that you're sensitive to, um, and if you don't you don't want to hear something that you know it's it's it's not G-rated. Uh so just just be aware of that. And as as I said, you know, we're gonna approach it truthfully and through the lens of scripture, but be be aware that this is it it's a difficult text. Right. Um, so hopefully, um, hopefully you are willing to engage with it, even if it is difficult, um, because uh the Holy Spirit loves to reveal things to us in the midst of these really difficult texts. Uh-huh. So uh, but the the story we will be dealing with today is the story of Judah and Tamar. It is located in Genesis chapter 38. Uh, we will discuss very briefly uh the earlier chapters of Judah's life before we delve into Genesis 38. But in order to just set the stage for this conversation, I just have a couple like general questions for you before we dive in. And so the first is and these might take you a second, like you might have to think about it, uh, but just like give the give the first thing that comes to mind, okay? What is the most recent thing that you've apologized for?

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Oh my word. The most recent thing that I've apologized for?

SPEAKER_01 21:26

I would imagine you've apologized for something today.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Uh don't you think? Well, I I said I was sorry that someone had to take me to the airport this morning and get up early. You know, that's an apology.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

What's the what's the last thing you said you were sorry for?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Um, inconveniencing someone. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Okay. Um, I think the last thing that I apologized for was last night uh I went I went to bed super early. For those, for those that don't know me. When I say I went to bed, that doesn't mean I fell asleep. I it takes me probably a couple hours of existing in a bed before I fall asleep. I have restless leg syndrome. It's a whole thing. We won't get into all of those details right now. But I apologized to dad because I retired at like 8 p.m. Because I wanted to be asleep around 10. So I apologized to him because normally I'm super game to stay up and watch TV and like just have quality time. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I've got to go get in the bed. So I I think that's my most recent apology. Uh what's the most recent thing that someone said sorry to you for?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Somebody that said sorry to me. Okay. The meal after the funeral, a lady that I knew years ago came up to me and she uh she apologized, said she was sorry for dropping off the face of the earth and being out of touch. And so that I would say um that's the last person I remember apologizing to me, and it was something that there was no no no apology was necessary.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

But I'm I'm I don't know the exact situation right now. Um I feel like dad has probably said sorry to me. So when while mom is out of town, dad uh he has no supervision, he has no impulse control, and uh he definitely has apologized to me for the state of the the kitchen in the parsonage because it got pretty messy. And so I think that he did apologize for that, and then he acknowledged that you not being here made a significant difference.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Wow, I didn't realize that had such an influence.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

He he probably won't admit that to you, but I'm admitting it to you.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

I'll never forget the time I was out of town and you were in town and you videoed the kitchen counter. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, and I was like, she's been gone for two days. There was not an inch of visible counter space, just food, random trinkets, items just everywhere. I I don't even know where it comes from. Genuinely, it's impressive.

unknown 24:44

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Okay, what is the first thing you think of when you hear the word sorry?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

First thing I think of forgiveness. Okay. I mean, are you one are you wanting like an incident or something? No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Just just what comes to mind because my answer is is silly. It's the Justin Bieber song. Oh my goodness. Okay. Like when I hear the word sorry, that's where my brain goes.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Well, um, love means never having to say your sorry.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah, I was if you didn't bring that up, I was gonna bring that up. The the infamous quote from Love Story. Uh-huh. Yeah. Love means never having to say your sorry. I will never forget as a small child, my mom and Mama Golden loved some Oprah. Every day, every day at 4 p.m., like clockwork, we were gonna be watching Oprah. And she, it was like her like final week of shows. I I genuinely believe it was like either her like third to last or like penultimate episode. Oprah reunited um the the actors from Love Story. Uh what are their names? My goodness, you can tell I'm tired today because normally Ryan O'Neal and what is Allie McGraw. Yeah, yep. Okay. So she reunited them on. I was seeing Tatum, but I could not call Ryan's name. Well, that's my brain also thought of Tatum before it thought of Ryan, but it was Ryan O'Neal and Allie McGraw um playing the love interest in love story and Oprah reunited them on her show. And that I had never seen Love Story because at this point in time, I don't know, I'm like seven, eight, maybe. And uh she she reads the quote, of course, like Love Means Never Having to Say You're Sorry, and she's like, What does that line mean to you, to Allie McGraw? And Allie McGraw was like, I have no idea. She was like, if I had been a more well-established actress, I would have refused to say that. But I was an unknown at the time, so I said it and it became one of the most iconic movie lines of all time. But to this day, I do not know what that means. Love means never having to say you're sorry. I like can create like a meaning for that quote in the sense of like, if you really loved me, you wouldn't hurt me in a way that's significant enough to necessitate an apology. But also, like humans are humans. That's right. So, and I feel like it's a greater expression of love for you to genuinely be sorry about something than for you to never offer an apology. So, but of course, when when you hear the word sorry, that movie quote is something that most people think of. You're right. Uh, what makes you more likely to accept an apology?

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Oh, what makes me more likely likely to accept an apology? I accept a lot of apologies, but I people take the words I'm sorry, and they just flippantly use them without there being any heart behind it or any genuineness. If somebody is genuinely saying that they're sorry, I have I have no issues whatsoever with accepting those apologies. But I can tell when somebody's just getting the word out there just to move on, but there's really no intent of, you know, it's not mean the action's gonna change.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Right, right. That's that's that's my answer is words don't I'm like words are easy, words are flippant. Right. You saying you're sorry means absolutely nothing to me. Changed action is what makes me accept an apology when I can see and observe that your actions have changed, that you are genuinely repentant and sorry for what you have done. And on the subject of sorry being easy and flippant as a word, uh mama is very quick to point out how frequently all of us in our family say sorry. Uh-huh. And should her go-to response is, you ain't sorry. Like that's every time I say sorry for something, she immediately hits me with, you ain't sorry. And growing up, you know, that was something I heard constantly. And I I grew to resent that being her response. And then as I got older and I began to really study what sincere repentance is and what it means to be sorry, I really grew to appreciate her her hesitancy to accept flippant apologies. Because she's right. A lot of the times the growing up, you know, she would she would be upset. She would be upset that I left my clothes somewhere. Or and she would vent her frustration to me. And I would be like, oh, I'm sorry. But she knew I was gonna put my clothes in the exact same place. And let's be honest, I'm still probably gonna put my clothes in the same place. Mama, I am working on it, okay? If she's listening, I don't we'll we'll see if she listens to this one. If she does, I'll get a text whenever she gets to this point. But I need, I did, I needed to stop saying sorry if I wasn't genuinely sorry. And the thing was, I would be sorry that she was frustrated, but not sorry enough to change my actions. Exactly. And that's sorry can't be predicated on the other person. Like sorry has nothing to do with their feelings. Sorry has to have to do with an inward work that I'm planning to do. And so the story that we are dealing with today is the first example of like full, genuine repentance in scripture. And the last thing that I want to say before we dive in and read the scripture is this this is not the Godwink of the week because it happened a couple of weeks ago, but it's something that I've been wanting to mention on the pod. And I just thought of this, that it goes hand in hand with what I said earlier about Therapy Seris telling me, like you when you when you say something out loud, like you you're putting intention behind it and you're manifesting it. Because you and I were having a conversation recently, and I mentioned that I really only have like one sincere regret in life because I really try to live in a way where I don't regret things. But there was a situation that occurred when I was a young teenager where I felt like I did not treat another human being with the care and concern and the delicate nature that they deserve to be treated with as a certain experience occurred in their life, and that I deeply regretted that. And that it was emo an emotionally fraught thing for me to look back on now because I do have to acknowledge I was like 14 years old. Uh-huh. I didn't have the lived experience, I didn't have the emotional tools in my toolbox to handle this the way that it deserved to be handled. But nonetheless, I I still wish that I did. Yeah. I wish that I could have handled it differently. And I said that to you. Like I've said it out loud. And it's so funny because it is something that I have thought about the fact that I regretted it many times, but I verbalized it to you. I gave it power through speech, and I said, you know, I really wish that I could go back and handle this differently, that I that I could have had the tools in my toolbox that I have now. Right. As a 14-year-old. And I said that to you. And then I ended up hanging out with the very person whom this story is about recently. And this person and I have hung out countless times since we were 14 years old, one of my best friends. But for the first time in our lives, that situation came up in conversation.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

And I was able to apologize to this person and say, I regret the way that I handled that. I am very sorry to you. Given the opportunity, I would behave so differently now. But here's the thing, and that's like that is wonderful. And I genuinely praise God for the opportunity to do that because He gave me that opportunity. And I feel like He only gave it to me because I I spoke it into existence. I said this is something that I would like to rectify. But the reality is me having the opportunity to verbalize an apology to that person would not matter at all if I did not live my life in a way that made it so clear that I would not make those same decisions. Like if I I cannot apologize for something if I would do the same thing again. Right. And I would not. In that situation, I would not handle that the way that I did as a child. And so that is the real apology. The verbalizing the fact that I'm sorry, that is a byproduct of the fact that I have changed as a person. And so that's what sincere repentance is. It's and we'll we'll talk about this in a few moments when we get further, like when we read the story and are diving into the narrative. But repentance is not saying sorry. Right. Repentance is changing your actions. And we'll outline that and define that and give you the steps for what biblical true repentance is as we discuss. But now we're we're ready to dive in. Was there anything else that you want to say generally? Okay. So in order to understand Genesis 38, we need to backtrack just a bit. So we've been dealing with Jacob for the past couple of weeks, and we've been talking specifically about like generational trauma throughout Genesis. We talked about the things that Isaac and Rebecca each passed on to their children and how that affected the formation of Jacob's personality. And so interestingly, today we get to see how Jacob's parenting affects one of his son's personalities. Specifically, we'll be dealing with Judah today. And so we see that Jacob was not unlike his parents, which is so interesting that you know, favoritism rocked his family to the point that it broke it apart. Uh-huh. And then we see Jacob turn around and what does he do? He has a favorite. He has possibly the most clear-cut favorite in all of scripture. Um, so as we discussed in our last episode, Jacob he has two wives, he has two uh maidens, um midwives, uh handmaidens who he consorts with and has children with. So there's four different women with whom he is reproducing, but of those four women, he sincerely loves Rachel. And Rachel is his favorite wife. And so as a result, Rachel, you know, we talked about her difficulty to conceive, and that she has one at the conclusion of where we were in scripture last week, she had one child, right? And that was Joseph. And so because of Jacob's love for Rachel, Joseph becomes Jacob's favorite in very obvious ways, right? And so the favoritism which is shown to Joseph understandably causes issues with his brothers, right? And so the brothers begin to resent him. They resent the favoritism that Jacob shows him. And so most people know this story. I feel like the story of Joseph is another one of those standard Sunday school stories. And also, you know, Joseph, King of Dreams, my one of my favorite films as a child. So I feel like this is one of those stories that even if you have like a very baseline level of biblical familiarity, you probably know the story of Joseph. Right. You know, the coat of many colors. Uh, and so what happens at this point in the narrative we're in we'd be in Genesis 37 right now, is Jacob has been showing very obvious favoritism. He's given Joseph the coat of many colors, and Joseph goes out into the field to find his brothers. And the brothers are very frustrated, very resentful, and Reuben has the idea that they need to cast Joseph into a pit. Because originally the idea is let's kill him. And Reuben is the oldest. Reuben stands up and he's like, I don't think that we should kill him. That seems a little harsh, but we can throw him in a pit and just leave him. Yeah. So but on Ruben's advice, that's what the brothers do. They cast Joseph, they strip him of his coat, and they cast him into a pit. And then there happen to be these passers-by who are slave traders who are headed to Egypt. And it is Judah, the fourthborn son of Jacob, who stands up and says, Hmm, we said we didn't want to kill him because he he's our flesh and our blood. But what if we sold him? What if we sold him? We could make some money off of him. Let's trade him, let's sell him to the slavers. And so it is Judah's idea that sends Joseph into slavery to Egypt. Right. And that's really all that we know about Judah prior to Genesis 38. That's the only time that he has stood out in the narrative as an individual. Right. Every other time he's just been a collective member of the sons of Jacob. But that's the first time that his voice is really used in the biblical narrative. And so Judah is the reason that Joseph is sold into slavery. And then we pick up with Genesis chapter 38. And one of the things that confounds a lot of people when they read Genesis 38 is its placement. Uh-huh. Because the prior chapter, clearly, the main character is Joseph. All of the subsequent chapters until the end of the book of Genesis, the main character is Joseph. And so 38 is placed seemingly in a strange spot. And biblical scholars and readers often look at it and they're like, why is this here? And I think the answer is abundantly clear when you really try to understand and open yourself up to what the Holy Spirit is revealing in this chapter. So we'll we will discuss why this chapter is placed where it is, why we get an interlude about Judah in the midst of the story of Joseph. So Genesis chapter 38, beginning at verse 1, says this. About that time Judah left his brothers and camped near a certain Adulamite whose name was Hira. There Judah saw the daughter of a certain Canaanite whose name was Shua, and he took her to wife and cohabitated with her. She conceived and bore a son, and he named him Ur. She conceived again and bore a son and named him Onan. Once again she bore a son and named him Shelah. He was at Hezib when she bore him. Judah got a wife for Ur, his firstborn. Her name was Tamar. But Ur, Judah's firstborn, was displeasing to God, and God took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, Join with your brother's wife, and do your duty by her as a brother-in-law, and provide an offspring for your brother. But Onan, knowing that the offspring would not count as his, let the semen go to waste whenever he joined with his brother's wife, so as not to provide offspring for his brother. What he did was displeasing to God, who took his life also. Then Judah said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, Stay as a widow in your father's house until my son Shelah grows up, for he thought he too might die, like his brothers. So Tamar went to live in her father's house. A long time afterwards, Shua's daughter, the wife of Judah, died. When his period of mourning was over, Judah went up to Timnah to the sheep shearers, together with his friend Hira the Adulamite. And Tamar was told, Your father-in-law is coming up to Timnah for the sheep shearing. So she took off her widow's garb, covered her face with a veil, wrapping herself up, sat down at the entrance to Anium, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that Shelah was grown up, yet she had not been given to him as a wife. When Judah saw her, he took her for a prostitute, for she had covered her face. So he turned aside to her by the road and said, Here, let me sleep with you, for he did not know that she was his daughter in law. What? she asked, will you pay me for sleeping with me? He replied, I will send a kid from my flock, but she said, You must leave a pledge until you have sent it. And he said, What pledge shall I give you? She replied, Your seal and cord, and the staff that you carry. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she conceived by him. Then she went on her way, she took off her veil, and again put on her widow's garb. Judah sent the kid by his friend the Adulamite to redeem the pledge from the woman, but he could not find her. He inquired of the locals, Where is the attendant? The one at Enneam by the road. But they said, There has been no attendant there. So he returned to Judah and said, I could not find her. Moreover, the locals said, There has been no attendant here. Judah said, Let her keep them, lest we become a laughing stock. I did send her this kid, but you did not find her. About three months later, Judah was told, Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the whore. In fact, she is pregnant from whoredom. Bring her out, said Judah, she should be burned. As she was being brought out, she sent this message to her father-in-law. It is by the man to whom these belong that I am pregnant. And she added, Examine these, whose seal and cord and staff are these. Judah recognized them and said, She is more in the right than I, often translated, She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shela, and he was not intimate with her again. When the time came for her to give birth, there were twins in her womb. While she was in labor, one of them put out a hand, and the midwife tied a crimson thread on that hand to signify this one came out first. But just then it drew back its hand, and out came its brother, and she said, What a breach you have made for yourself. So he was named Perez. Afterward his brother came out, on whose hand was the crimson thread. He was named Zara. So that is Genesis 38 in its entirety. There's a lot for us to discuss here, but what jumps out at you?

SPEAKER_00 44:09

What jumps out at me? Okay. Um, one of the things I feel like we need to uh talk about a little bit is in verses 7 and maybe 11, where um let's see, Ur, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord. And it says, and the Lord took his life. Yeah. And I think that's something that's going to raise some questions. Uh, and then I let me see if it's verse 11. Where he takes on his life.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Those those those verses do raise questions that are important for us to discuss. Before we discuss them, I have a question for you. Okay. Old Testament stories such as this. How important, how imperative do you think it is that we take them literally as historical fact?

SPEAKER_00 45:07

I think it's very important to take take them literally. As historical fact. I mean, uh what what are you? I mean Do I think this happened historically? Is that what you're asking me? Absolutely. I think it happened historically.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Do you think do you think that you must interpret it that way?

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Uh I don't think you have to. Okay. I don't think you I don't think you have to. But um the way I the more the way I read scripture and all I I do, but I I I don't necessarily think that you have to. Um, but this reveals so much about uh let's see it just it reveals so much like when we get when we talk in a little bit in a little bit about when when a brother died and he was left with a widow and that kind of stuff. Um I just think those things are an important part of history that we we don't we live in our society, you know, one one man, one wife, and that kind of stuff. And so I think that um that is it's important to um know the time, know the culture, and uh and I I believe I personally believe is historically accurate.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

I I agree that it's very important to understand the the context, the culture, and the reason that I asked whether or not you think that it is imperative that people interpret this as literal historic event is because there is the field of thought that stories such as this exist in the scripture to explain aspects of culture, to explain, you know, that this is the way that life was at this point in time. And so I I ask whether or not you think that it's imperative that we have to interpret this as historical fact, because there are certainly those who would read this and say that this story exists somewhat as as an etiology, as as a story that explains where customs or things come from. And I think that specifically in light of the verses of God slaying humans, uh-huh, that there are those who would contend that this story is meant to be symbolic. And so it's not necessarily God physically bringing about the death of a human being. Right. I'm not saying that that's how I interpret the story, but I think that it is important that we acknowledge that that is a field of thought and that that could lend itself to the reading of these verses because we've been very, very open from the outset of this podcast about the nature of God being such that God does not desire for anyone to perish. Right. Right. And so then you read this and you're like, oh my goodness, per poor Ur, poor Onan, you know, and like Onan, we get a specific example of what he's doing that that leads to God passing judgment on him. Ur, it's just he's displeasing to God. We don't get a specific example. But me personally, when I read those verses, the significance that I draw from them is that if we are if we are reading Genesis specifically through the lens of parent and child and generational issues and trauma, I interpret those verses as teaching us what a failure of a father Judah was. That if God if his children are incurring judgment from God, what kind of job did he do raising them, instructing them, modeling for them what a relationship with Yahweh looks like?

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

And so I think because I I think even though Tamar is kind of the impetus of the story, like she's she's she's the hinge on which this story opens and closes, like she Judah is the the the one that has a character arc in this story. He's the one that is changing, that is learning something. And I think that it's extremely important to his learning, to his development, that this happens to his sons, and seemingly that it happens because of him. Right. How how do you read those verses and how do you view those verses through the lens of a compassionate loving God?

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Well, when when I when I read these that God took his life, because I I know the nature of God and uh and I know his as his attributes and all, um I don't I don't see it as God just slew them. Okay. I think getting King James with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of King James, anyway, um, but I believe that there may have been protection there that was withdrawn. Okay, and had had Judah as a father raised his children to know the ways of God and to walk in God's ways, I think there's there's protection that comes in that. And so I think you know, the fact that we don't know what he did, but it was wicked, it was evil, you know, then it's I think God withdrew any protection that may have been there, and then then he died. And then, you know, like you said, with Ona, we know exactly what he's doing, and so um he's he's trying to you know to make sure that there's no heir there to to receive uh the firstborn's portion.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

And so um so so you're reading it, this is interesting to me, you're reading it not as God killed them, but as God did not prevent them from being killed.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Right. I I read it as God allowed them to die.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

That's that is interesting. Uh I think that it's really, really important that we acknowledge that these are difficult verses, you know, especially in light of our conversation last week about wrestling with God. You know, there there are things within scripture that aren't easy to swallow. Right. There are things within scripture, let's acknowledge this. There are things within scripture that are seemingly contradictory. I use the word seemingly, like that, that word is doing a lot of load bearing in that sentence. Because as a human, when we read it and we read this and then we take it, you know, and in light of what we know about the nature of God, they seem as if they're in contradiction to one another. But if we will wrestle with it, if we will spend time thinking about it, examining it, praying about it, then we will find that there are a great many possible interpretations that make this make sense. So I think, you know, your interpretation of it's not that God actively murders them, right? But it's that God allows them to essentially kill themselves through their own actions. And my interpretation of this exists within the narrative to show us the type of father that Judah was, that he raised sons that would conduct themselves in a way that would incur the judgment of God. Sons that would not do the right thing. Right, right. Sons, sons that were not in the right. Yes. Even though these are sons born to the covenant of God, right? They're children of Abraham, direct descendants, only a couple of generations removed, these people are so are the people of the covenant.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

And yet they are not in right relationship with Yahweh and they are not behaving rightly. Um, and so I think that both of these interpretations can be correct. This is the beauty of scripture, you know. It doesn't, it it is absolute truth, but it does not have to be absolute. Uh-huh. We can read the same scripture and we can examine it differently, and we can come away with different teachings, and they all can be valid because it's living and it's vital.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

And in different seasons, seasons of our lives, it will mean different things to us. And so this is why conversations like this are so important. Like, let's acknowledge this is difficult, but in the difficulty, the Holy Spirit can reveal things to us.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

So, and right now I'm thinking about overnax, uh, Ananias and Sapphira, when they lied to the Holy Spirit and they they they died right there. God didn't, it wasn't that God was waiting to kill them, it was their actions that um that brought about their demise and their death. And so, and that that's kind of how I I read this, is that um, you know, they actually wickedly um deceiving, trying to um trying to manipulate is what was going on. And then we'll talk about manipulation probably further.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Yeah, well, while we're on this subject, I do think that we need to explain what's happening with Onan here, right? And I don't I don't mean explain what he's doing. No, we don't have to explain that. That is this is where the technical term onanism comes from. Uh and I will I will never forget the first time I heard this story in its entirety was not from a pulpit. And I I was a pastor's kid, grew up in church, in church, every time the doors were open. And the first time I heard this story in its entirety was in a college classroom when Dr. Ralston told this story, and he, if if you ever took a class with Christopher Rolston, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. This man, he has such a specific way of saying things, and he's very, he's so kind. So I love this man so much, but he's he's a little awkward. Most professors are. You know, if you're if you're beyond a certain level of brilliance, it comes with a little bit of social awkwardness. And so whenever he would teach this story, he would always use the terminology, he spilled his seed on the ground. And then he'd always be like, and this is where we get the term Onanism. Like he was so excited to get to share that little nugget with us. And I we were all like Ralston, none of us have ever sat here and wondered where to the term, first of all, none of us say that. That is not the terminology that anyone uses in the 21st century, but thank you for that. Um, but no, we need to explain why it is that Onan is doing this. And the reason it's it's explained somewhat in the text, but if you don't have the context and the background, then you might miss it. It's it's one of those blink and you miss it things within the scripture. So what's happening here is because Tamar was married first to Ur, if she were to have a child with Onan, it legally would not be considered Onan's child. It would be considered Ur's child. And as a result, it would be entitled to Ur's inheritance. And as we discussed two weeks ago when we talked about Esau's birthright, the oldest son was entitled to a double portion of inheritance. So Onan knew if he gave Tamar a son, and that son was legally considered the son of Ur, that son would become twice as rich as Onan and it would supplant him, jump him in the order of inheritance. Right. So as long as Tamar didn't have a child, Onan was entitled to the greatest inheritance. But as soon as Tamar had a son, then that son would get twice as much as Onan and Onan would lose out on being the first in the order of inheritance. But another thing that we have to acknowledge here is the custom of Leverite marriage, which is the custom that entitles Tamar to marry the closest living relative. This is, of course, the same custom that we see in the book of Ruth, where the closest kinsman is to marry the widow of the deceased member of the family. So this was a custom adopted in ancient Near Eastern cultures to protect women, which very few things were done in the ancient Near East to protect women. But we got this one thing where the idea is, of course, that women are property. And if a woman has ceased to be the property of her father and has become the property of her husband, and then her husband dies, she has no covering of protection because she's not directly owned by anyone. So she must always be owned by someone. She must always have a master over her in order to ensure that she can hold property and have money because she, in and of herself, like in her own right, she cannot do those things. Right. So she must be attached to a man who does have rights within the society so that she has that covering and that protection over her. So it's very interesting to me that you have Onan, who is so concerned with getting a double portion that he's denying Tamar and ensuring that she gets nothing.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

And that, I mean, is that not like the the cruelest but most basic like tenet of humanity on display? We are so concerned with what we get that we will deny and deprive those who need more than us. That's right. And so he was clinging so strongly to what he wanted so that he could get more that he denied Tamar what she needed to survive.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 59:24

And that that cuts to the core of that that's the ultimate wickedness of humanity on display that we are so concerned with what we can get that we deny others what they need. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Self-preservation. We're going to take care of ourselves at the expense of others.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Yeah, but it's not even preservation because he's still gonna survive. He's gonna get he's going to get a portion of inheritance. Will it be less? Yes. But hers is a matter of survival and preservation. His is a matter of prioritizing himself, not preserving himself.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

You're you're exactly right. He's gonna be at the top of the pile.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Right, right. And so, and again, that's Judah raised his sons to to think this way and to behave this way. The we shouldn't be surprised that the man who was so ready and willing to profit off of selling his brother into slavery would raise sons that would be so concerned with with profit, with prioritization that they would hurt and harm those less than them.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

Right. And and then the fact that he made Tamar the promise, the assurance, well, my youngest will raise up. You know, and then look who he's he's he's taking care of there. He's taking care of of his Tamar's.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

He again is modeling for his sons that you are more important. And that's what that's what he's showing Shela here because he's saying, I value your life more than I value the the the promise and the covenant that has been made with her. Right. Um, and so again, we see these these people who are born into the covenant failing to understand the significance of the covenant, which that is so interesting. There's so much there that you know, people who are born into some degree of spiritual awareness, right? How much how much do we often negate to to fully recognize the significance of being a part of covenant relationship with God?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Yeah. We we'll a lot of times um have no concept of covenant, and we also don't necessarily feel the um need to introduce others to covenant, to covenant relationship. And in that we're denying them their spiritual inheritance. You know, we're yeah, we're supposed to bring people in.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

Yeah, we're supposed to to bring people in and joyfully share our inheritance with them.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

Exactly. And sometimes you actually find people that become spiritual elitists, you know, and they think that they have this corner market on spirituality, and they're they're the elite, and they're the ones that God sees, and they're the only ones that God will ever recognize, and they have no responsibility to bring anybody else into the covenant. And that is totally against what this this whole journey is about.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

Yeah, and that is spiritually becoming onen. It's saying I'm storing this up for myself. I don't want to share this with the foreigner. Right. I don't want her to inherit anything, I don't want her child to inherit anything. I want this for me and mine.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

Yeah. This we used to call this in the church, my four and no more. My you know, I'm gonna take care of my four and no more. And it in a lot of churches, they got their four and no more.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

And that is so the opposite of Jesus. Uh-huh. Because Jesus came for those who would reject him. Exactly. For those who were so far outside of his existence and his family, you know. So, wow, yeah. All right, so we see here that according to the custom of leverite marriage, after the death of Ur, Tamar is given to Onan. After the death of Onan, Judah steps back and essentially he diagnoses Tamar with being a black widow. He's like, which is so interesting because again, at the core of human nature, it can't be his fault. It can't be the way he raised his sons, it can't be his son's fault in the way that they conducted themselves. It has to be Tamar's fault. Yeah, it's Tamar's fault. It's this foreign woman who came in. She's she's the issue here, not my parenting, not my sons, it's her, right? So he he diagnoses Tamar as the problem, but he can't be upfront and honest with her. He lies to her and tells her, you know, go go wait it out at your father's house. And when Shela is old enough, then you can be married to him. So Tamar goes back, but Judah knows the whole time he has no intention of giving Shella to Tamar in marriage. Uh and it just, like I said, that it's it's it's human nature. We, you know, it's it's the what we saw on display in the garden. This can't be my fault. I have to have someone else to blame. And so I I also think it's so funny. Like, what what does Judah think it is that Tamar is doing that is causing this? You know, like does he think that she's out here poisoning his sons?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

So possibly she is, I think that literarily within scripture, she's the first black widow.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Yeah. So um, so Judah does not intend to give Shela to Tamar. And this is where we get the narrative of Tamar disguising herself, planting herself on the road to Timna, where the sheep shearing occurs. Um, what what give me anything that jumps out at you from this from this portion of the story?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

Um, you know, that when she had knowledge that she heard he was going to pass by, uh, I I think it was I think it was it was so wise of her. I really do, to, to hear that and then plant herself in in that position to where she would be on the road where he would pass by. And of course, you know, she took off her morning clothes. How long she's been wearing these morning clothes? Long enough for Shella to grow up. So is she just supposed to wear morning clothes forever?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

You know, is that supposed to be you know what I think I have to think of? What uh Scarlet O'Hara in Gone with the Wind when she's dancing under the table. Bazaar because she's like, I I don't like mourning. I don't want to wear black.

unknown 1:06:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

Yeah. But after all these years, she removes her morning clothes and she positions herself on the road and uh you know covers her face and it's so interesting to me that Judah no longer has his wife and he's on the road to do business and he sees someone who appears to him to be a prostitute and he turns into the prostitute, you know. And um something something amazing that she she knew this would happen. It's like she, you know, she if she positioned herself there that he would stop and give attention.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

And uh I I think she fully her expectation was Yeah, the way that it reads to me, and it could read differently to someone else, but the way that it reads to me, the fact that she asks for the cord for the ring for the staff, it it to me reads as if this is like her her plan. Right. That she she anticipated all of this happening in this way, and she anticipates the moment of her dropping the mic and being like, Well, it's to whom these belong, which by the way, we're not quite there yet, but that to me is like one of the most metal moments in all of scripture.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

Well, um, you know, she I I think she she fully expected he would see her, he would want to be with her. And uh once you know they had slept together, uh I I think I think she had it laid out. I'm gonna ask for these things, you know. And um, but I've heard people really put her down for these actions and what she did here, okay. And I've I've said in Bible studies where women have just tore her apart because of what she did here, but she had no one protecting her. She hadn't she had no way out. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

And so Well, let's let's be really honest here and just be frank in in how we say this. We haven't gotten yet to the scripture where Judah says she is more in the right than I. That's that's gonna be like that's the point we're building the way to.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

But Tamar is the only character in this entire narrative that never scripturally does anything wrong. Yeah. Nothing that she does is sinful or wrong. Let me explain. She sleeps with Judah. Shela has not been given to her by Judah, which makes Judah now the closest living kinsman. So, legally speaking, Tamar and Judah, for all intents and purposes, are married. Right. So when she sleeps with him, she sleeps with him knowing who she is sleeping with and knowing that per covenant law, this is the person whom she should be sleeping with. Uh-huh. Judah, as far as he is aware, is consorting with a prostitute. Uh-huh. So Tamar is not violating the covenant of marriage. It makes it very clear that Judah's wife is dead at this point in time. So no part of what Tamar is doing is act is sinful.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:31

She is a woman who is being industrious, who has a plan in motion, but it is a plan that operates fully within the covenant of how customs are carried out in this society. Right. She is not violating any law scripturally or legally. Judah, on the other hand, has no idea what he's doing. He has no idea that it's biblically permissible, that it's legally permissible. He's just going out and consorting with this person who's available to him on the road to Timna. And so there are so many reasons that he acknowledges that she is more in the right than him. But I think it's very, very important that we be clear about that. That Kamar does not do anything wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

And I and I appreciate you bringing that out because that's um I think so many people read this narrative and and they um they make her out to be wrong. Yeah, they and everything she's doing is in the right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:29

Which is so ironic because the scripture literally says, like, she's played the harlot or she's played the whore. And you would think that based on the events that transpire immediately after that line, then it would be pretty clear to the reader that that's that like that line is ironic. Yeah. But so many humans, I think, I think number one, whenever we read about sex in scripture, it immediately our hackles go up because it's awkward and we don't want to deal with it. And that that's what makes it a difficult task. But if you will dwell on it and dive into it, you will find that Tamar is abiding according to the customs, right? And that she's not doing anything morally wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:09

I think one of the things uh one time I was teaching this, and I said, when you get to the you just read the chapter and don't dissect it, break it apart. You get it to the end, and you're just like, yuck, what? What did I just raise? It's it's very soap opera. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So anyway, but yes, um, let's see. She she did absolutely nothing wrong. And I think it was so intelligent, the specific things that she asked for. The seal, the cord, and the staff, and the significance of those items in that culture. And that day he readily.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

I mean, you know what? Judah does not come off smart. No, he doesn't. She's intelligent. He's like, he doesn't come off very smart here. Listen, I want to think it with his brain. Yeah, I want to make it clear. Judah's my guy. Like, I love Judah. I think that he is one of the most important figures in scripture. But in this chapter, my man is dumb. Yes, he he is, and in many, many ways. Uh, but I do think it's important that we point out, you know, the the signet ring, the seal, right, um, the cord, and the staff. Those are the ways which you identified someone in the ancient parents. Like that essentially, like Judah is sending his passport, his driver's license, and his birth certificate. Like he now has no means of identification and she has all of it. Yeah. So that is what he has sent to her. And I also think, I think it's very funny. Scripture is is cinematic and scripture can be comedic. And I feel like we as a society need to embrace that more because the mental image of Judah and his buddy being like, well, we didn't find her. Ha ha, we got off scot-free. Like, we have nothing to worry about. Like that, that is funny, especially when you've already read the chapter and you know what's about to happen. Right. So then we get to the point where three months pass and Tamar is visibly pregnant at this point. And people come to Judah and they're like, she's played the whore in her whoredom. She has gotten pregnant. And Judah says, Bring her out. She should be burned. That is objectively insane. Yeah. I also correct me if I'm wrong. Is this the only instance of burning at the stake that we find in scripture?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:30

It's the only one that I'm wondering.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

It's the only one that I can think of off the top of my head. I could, there could be like a narrative tucked somewhere. Yeah. But it this is burning at the stake the only instance that I think of readily in scripture. Uh so he's like, she should be burned. And I love that the way that it reads to me. There's no panicking on Tamar's part. There's a very calm, yeah. Let me send you back your driver's license, your passport, and your birth certificate, and remind you. And so she sends, she sends these objects that identify him and says, it is by the man to whom these belong that I have become pregnant. And I again I say that is the most metal moment in all true. That is the ultimate mic drop. Uh-huh. But again, cutting to the core of human nature here, Judah himself is guilty of sexual misconduct. He knows that outside of the confines of marriage, he went and consorted with a prostitute, but he is willing to put Tamar to death for a presumed sexual sin. And he doesn't even investigate enough to find out that she hasn't sinned. That is human. That is humanity on display. How often do we want to condemn people on the basis of what we observe without going deeper, without understanding their motivations, without sometimes understanding that they're not even acting in sin? It just looks like sin to us. Exactly. And we're actually guilty of something much more severe.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:59

Uh-huh. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

And how often are we, as people who are within covenant, how often do we look at people outside of the covenant and try to judge them according to the standards of the covenant when they're not even a part of it? Right. So the fact that he will burn her for something that he is guilty of.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

I was gonna say, well, he's done, he's willing to sacrifice her, have her burned at the stake. And so, and that's how many how many times, if if you sit back and you pay attention even to our own lives, how many times have we have we, you know, um, I pray that I haven't done it much in recent years and all that, but it's so easy to look at somebody else else and render them guilty of something that you've done yourself or you carry within you. So that's that that's one reason sometimes things about other people bother you so much because it's it's the thing that you have.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:55

Yeah, it's it's projection so that you don't have to deal with it inwardly. Yes, you'd rather deal with it externally than deal with it inwardly. Yep. Yeah, so here is where we get the line that makes this one of my favorite chapters of scripture. Pro possibly, it's not I never say this is my favorite verse because typically when someone asks you what's your favorite verse, I say a verse that the explanation is within the verse itself. If you deprive this verse of its context, then it's it's not a very striking verse, but she is more in the right than I, or she has been more righteous than I. I think that is one of the most powerful sentences in all of scripture because number one, for what it means contextually, right? The fact that you have a man in the ancient Near East, a man born into the covenant of God, looking at a foreign woman and saying about her, she is more in the right than I. Like that's just unheard of. It's incomprehensible within that culture. She's property, she is his property. Right. And he she's he's looking at her and saying, she's been more righteous. Someone who was not born to this, someone who is not entitled to all that comes along with being reconciled to God through covenant, and yet she has behaved more rightly than I. What an expression of humility. Exactly. What and what an expression of genuine repentance. And I say that because notice, Judah, see, see, we as humans, we read this and we're like, well, he owes her a big apology, right? He was about to have her burned at the stake. Notice Judah does not look at her and say, I'm sorry. Judah looks at her and instead of saying anything about her, he acknowledges his own wrongdoing. Right. And that is the first step to genuine repentance. It is acknowledging the wrong and the harm that you have caused. So for these next few moments, as we unpack what it means to be genuinely repentant, we will be relying on the model of Maimonides. Maimonides, one of the greatest Jewish rabbis and scholars of all time. And he outlined what is genuine biblical repentance. And he broke it down into five essential steps. And the first step that Maimonides supplies for repentance is naming and owning harm. Naming and owning harm. So the first step is not to go to someone and say, I'm sorry. The first step is to say, this is what I have done wrong. No, no asking for anything in return. Simply naming aloud, this is what I have done. And specifically, Maimonides says that the confession, the naming, has to be equally public in nature as the harm caused. So if the slight that I've committed against you is just personal and internal between us, the naming of the harm can likewise be internal and personal. But if the harm that I've caused you is public, I have to make a public acknowledgement that I have harmed you in this way. So Judah here has had Tamar brought out before people to have her burned. So he has to acknowledge before the people, I have been wrong. I have done wrong. So the first step in genuine repentance is naming and owning your harm and making sure that your confession is reflective of the level of harm that you've caused. Step two is beginning to change. Beginning to change. This is where transformation is introduced to the repentance process. You don't change after you've apologized. You have to change before. You acknowledge I have done wrong and you commit yourself to the process of transformation, to saying I will not be the same person who did that wrong in the future. I commit myself to the fact that I am not going to continue to be that person. So that's the second step is beginning to change, transformation. Step three is restitution and accepting consequences. Restitution and accepting consequences. So you name what it is that you have done, you commit yourself to changing so that you will no longer be the person who did that thing. And then you begin to make amends, not verbally or through apology, but in acknowledging there are negative effects to what happened, and I accept them. I acknowledge that they exist because of my actions, and I will do all that I can to make it right. So that is the third step to begin the process of repair. But Maimonides is very specific that repair work does not repair much if the only thing that changes is the perpetrator. So if the only transformation that you undertake is internal, you're not fully undergoing genuine repentance. You have to, it begins internally and you say, I'm gonna change myself. Right. And that was step two that I changed myself. Step three is I begin to change the world around me because I've changed as a human being. So now I'm injecting restitution into the world. Right. I'm saying that I will make this right. I can't be the only thing that changes. Circumstances have to change, structures have to change. I'm committing myself to not just changing me, but to changing the things around me that made it possible for me to commit this harm. And then step four is the step that everyone wants to skip to. Step four is the apology. Step four is when you verbally pacify and appease the person who was harmed. And Maimonides is very specific that the apology must be victim-centric. So the apology is not to alleviate your own conscience. Right. And your apology is not, I'm sorry that I made you feel that way, or I'm sorry that you took it that way. That's not the type of victim-centric thing that we're talking about here. The apology is I am deeply sorry for what I did to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:41

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:42

I I so I have acknowledged the harm. I have made genuine transformation, I have sought to better the world around me, and I've accepted the consequences. And only now am I coming to you face to face, I'm looking you in the eye, and I'm telling you, I am deeply sorry for this. But you can only genuinely apologize after all of those actionable steps have been taken. And then the final step, step five, is making different choices. Making different choices. This is when your transformation is tested. So my Maimonides defined repentance in this way, and this is the way I always define repentance. I think it's such a beautiful sentiment, and I think that it's biblically true. Repentance has been undertaken when you are given the opportunity to make the exact same mistake and you choose the precise opposite. I am repentant when I have the opportunity to cause the same harm and I actively choose, no, I'm going to behave differently this time. I have the opportunity to make to make the same mistake, but I instead choose the exact opposite. That is repentance. And that's what Judah models for us here. Because if we continue with Judah's story throughout the remainder of Genesis, we find that Judah is placed in a position where he has the opportunity to make the exact same mistakes that he made in his youth. Uh-huh. Right? And so what I'm talking about, of course, is, you know, in subsequent chapters, there's a famine in the land of Canaan. And so the sons of Jacob travel to Egypt and they encounter Joseph, but they, of course, don't know who Joseph is. And Joseph recognizes them, and Joseph wants to test them. He essentially wants to see if they're the same people that sold him into slavery or if they've matured and changed as people. And so Joseph requests that they bring Benjamin back. And a lot of other things, you know, transpire. Simeon is left as collateral and all of these things. And they bring eventually the brothers make it back to Canaan and they approach Jacob and they tell Jacob, We we can get the grain, we can get the resources, but we have to bring Benjamin. Benjamin has to go with us. And Jacob says no. And Reuben steps forward as the oldest. And Reuben says, You can entrust him to my care. I'll bring him back to you. Let him go down with us. And Jacob says no. And then Judah steps forward. And Judah says, Entrust Benjamin to my care. I'll bring him back to you. And Jacob relents. He says yes. And scripture doesn't give us an explanation as to why. But I sincerely believe that it is the story in Genesis 38 that makes it so that Jacob allows Benjamin to travel in the care of Judah because when Reuben stands forward and says, I'll take him, you can entrust him to me, Jacob says no, because Jacob's fear is that he's going to lose Benjamin. And he's already lost Joseph. So if he loses Benjamin, that will be losing two sons. When Judah stands forward and says, Entrust him to my care, Jacob knows that he can because he knows that Judah knows the pain of losing two sons. Judah has buried two sons. Judah knows the tragedy and the emotion that accompanies that. And so when he entrusts Benjamin to Judah, he does that because he knows that Judah empathizes with the fear that is gripping Jacob right now. That Judah will understand the severity and the importance of having the fate of Benjamin entrusted to him. So Jacob chooses to trust Judah, seemingly because of the fact that Judah has undergone the experiences that are outlined in Genesis 38. And Judah travels with Benjamin and the other brothers back to Egypt. And this is where we get the narrative where Joseph places the cup, the goblet, in the bag of Benjamin, so that Benjamin can be arrested. And when Benjamin is arrested in Egypt, it is Judah that immediately steps forward and says, Take me instead. Hold me captive, enslave me, put me in prison. Don't take my younger brother. And we see that here, Judah has the opportunity to make the same decision that he made as a young man: the decision to leave his brother, to sell his brother, to do wrong by his brother. And Judah this time chooses the precise opposite. He offers his own life in Benjamin's place. And Judah could not understand genuine repentance. Judah could not be spiritually mature enough to make this decision. Judah would not have developed as a character enough throughout the narrative to do this if the events of Genesis 38 did not transpire. Because he was able to point at Tamar and say, She has been more in the right than I. He he began the process of repenting. He acknowledged the harm that he had caused. And when he named and acknowledged that harm, he was able to begin a journey of repenting and developing and growing and becoming the man that God needed him to be, so that when he stood in Egypt, he could make a different decision. Wow. And it's only because he makes that different decision that his family is reunified. Right. It's only because he makes that decision that the nation of Israel even goes into Egypt. Right? Everyone gives credit to Joseph, but what brings the entire family there is the fact that Judah's actions cause Joseph to reveal his identity and invite them. So I think that it's very important that we acknowledge that repentance in the Hebrew, the word there is Teshuva, which literally means return. Return. And it's only through repentance that this family returns to being in right relationship with one another. Wow, that's good. So repentance leads us to return. Through return, you don't revert, but you repair. We're returning to things being better. Because Judah is better. Judah has grown and developed as a man, and he's able to make better decisions. So we're not reverting, we are repairing. Rabbi Dania Rutenberg says this you can never unbreak what you have broken. But with the sincere and deep work of transformation, acts of repair have the potential to make something new. And so Judah makes something new, but he also makes something better of himself, of his relationships. And it only happens because of this story with Tamar. I believe that acknowledging the wrong that he has done is what sets Judah apart for leadership and favor. Yeah. Because Judah, when we think of the sons of Jacob, who has the most significant lineage?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:28

Judah. Judah. Oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:30

Yeah. Who has who has the most significant role in the rest of scripture? Judah. Judah, right? And this is something that's very, very, very interesting to me. Okay. I believe genuinely, and this is me, this is my personal belief, but I think that it's supported by scripture, right? That the reason Judah is given this role is because of his repentance, but also because of his birth order. Okay. Because Judah is the fourthborn son of Jacob. Okay. His firstborn son is Reuben. Okay. Reuben sins against Jacob in the fact that Reuben has sexual relations with the handmaidens of Jacob. He sleeps with a woman whom his father has already slept with. That's a violation of covenant. So Reuben does something wrong. Okay. The importance is not that Reuben does something wrong. It's that Reuben is never shown to be repentant. Reuben never acknowledges that he's done anything wrong. He doesn't try to transform. He doesn't try to make restitution. He doesn't go through any of the steps of the process of repentance. Okay. And because of that, Reuben is skipped over in terms of inheritance. Next, the next two sons born to Jacob are Simeon and Levi. Simeon and Levi are the sons who invoke the war with Shechem because of the violence, the sexual violence that's been done against their sister Dinah. Morally, do we understand why they would seek retribution absolutely, but they are chastised by Jacob because they they created more violence, right? So scripturally, we are shown that Simeon and Levi do wrong. And we are never shown that they are repentant for what they have done wrong, right? They don't acknowledge the harm that they've caused, they don't begin the act of changing themselves, they don't try to change the world around them, right? They don't, they don't do anything within the process of repentance that's seen in the biblical text. Next in birth order is Judah. And Judah does wrong, much like his older brothers, much like any human being. He is guilty of doing wrong. But what sets Judah apart is that he acknowledges the wrong that he's done. He verbally acknowledges it. He begins the work of changing himself, he begins the work of changing the world around him, and he apologizes and makes sure that he makes a different decision. So because Judah goes through the process of biblical sincere repentance, I think this is what sets Judah apart. Right. I think it could have been Reuben. I think it could have been Simeon. I think it could have been Levi. I think the fact that none of them modeled repentance is what ensured that Judah was the one set apart for biblical favor in the narrative.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:40

I would, I would definitely have to agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:42

And I think that that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:44

And then when you read this chapter, Genesis 38, I said just to read through, I go, yuck, what did I just read? But when it's broken down, um, and then we see that it's a perfect picture of repentance, then it's like, wow, thank you, Father, that this chapter is right here.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:05

And how powerful is it that repentance and restitution, all of that is exemplified in a story that does make us go yuck. Like it seems like the worst of the worst. And so it's like if God can redeem this, if God can redeem this story that's got gross and awkward parts and deals with sexuality and prostitution and all of these things, like if God can repurpose and use this, there's nothing beyond his scope for redemption.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:36

And there is nothing beyond his scope for redemption.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:40

Uh, I do want to focus in specifically on she is more in the right than I, because as I've said earlier, I think that that is one of the most powerful sentences in scripture. What what do you think, what do you feel when you read that line?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:57

Well, because of the person we've been dealing with, Judah, for that to come out of his mouth, it is it's it's astonishing. That isn't when you're reading it, that is not your expectation at all that this is what's gonna happen. Because like he was, she's you know, she deserves to be burned. And the moment that it's revealed to him his wrongness, okay, um, her righteousness shines so bright, you know, because his wrongness is so glaring to him. And so many times, and I I think everybody has this point in their life where the places where they're wrong are revealed, but so many times we don't own it. We're we don't take responsibility for it. So I think it's uh it's just uh a like a light shattering the darkness when he's he says that she's more right, she's been more righteous than I have. That that's what if that's what I see as just see like like light exploding in the darkness and like uh that's the imagery I get.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:13

I I agree with that. And as I've said, you know, I think it's one of the most beautiful and powerful statements in scripture. And the reason for that is we we've said so many times throughout this episode, like this is human nature, this cuts to the core of what it is to be human, right? This to me goes against every human inclination to point at someone else and say, you know what, they're doing it better. They're more right than I because as humans, we want so strongly to be right. So we are more concerned with being right than doing right by our fellow man a lot of the time. Exactly. We want to be the one that's vindicated, that's validated, that's proven to be correct. And so for Judah to look at a foreign woman and say she is more right than I, that goes against his every human inclination. There's a black widow. Yeah, this and it goes against it goes against all of his preconceived notions and prejudices. Right. To say in this moment, she is more in the right than I. And what I love about this is the humility that it displays. And the reality is that there's always someone more right than us. I and I pray that I never lose sight of that, that I don't have it all right. At no point on this side of eternity will I have it all right because I can't. I'm still a human. That's right. And there's always someone more right than me. There are people that are at different points on their faith walks that they understand better than I do. They have a greater revelation than I do. Their gifts are consecrated in a different way than mine. There's always someone that I can point to and say they are more in the right than I. And I want to keep that perspective because I never want to get so high on my horse that I lose sight of the fact that I'm not the one that's right. And I'm not the one that's righteous. Because the fact of the matter is, yes, there are always other humans I can point to and say they're more in the right than I, but ultimately I have Jesus Christ as my example to whom I can always point and say, He's more in the right than I. He's more righteous than I. He's the only one who is truly righteous. And so, whatever rightness or righteousness that I offer to this world is only because I am reflecting him. There is always someone more in the right than I. Thank God that I'm wrong. Like I need to be wrong because I'm human and I'm fallible and I'm weak. But he is none of those things. He's infallible, he's infinite, he's strong, he's good, he's gracious, he's generous, he's all of these things, and he is more right than I. And thank goodness that he's more right than I, and that I have him to point to.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:01

And in his rightness, he makes us righteous. And that's, you know, the Bible speaks of our righteousness and what it's like. But we've been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:15

And he could, he could be owning, he could want to store up his own inheritance. That's right. But he freely shares his inheritance with us. Who we who are unworthy, we who were who were outside of the covenant, right? None of us were born into righteousness because we can't be. That's right. Righteousness only comes through him and through a relationship with him, and yet he shares the covenant with us freely and generously. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:44

That's good stuff, though. Go ahead. One thing that gets that I love about Judah saying that is he didn't have to, he didn't say, Hey, let me go home and sit with this and weigh it out. Once it was revealed, it was immediate. And I I I love that, that it was like it was it was immediate. And I that's just because some of us would be like, hey, let me go, let me go fake get an angle to this and figure out how. You know, I I have to be right. I love when you said that we as humans, as human nature, to want to be the right one. And that that's such a common phrase today. Um, that you know, do you want to be right or you do you want to be reconciled? Do you want to be right? Do you want to stand there and win the argument and be right? Or do you do you want us to be able to have relationship and have fellowship? And thanks be to God that Jesus Christ, the one who's won our victory, he was said as righteous as I am, I'll become, I'll take all the wrong and all the sin of the world on myself so that all of these can be made righteous. And now we can we can approach the Father because we've been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. It's it's so beautiful. This is such a beautiful story. It is and those people would want to cut it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:22

Yep. Well, speaking of, you know, the role of Jesus, we would be remiss if we did not mention, and I I think this is my final point, that Tamar is the first woman mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus Christ. Uh-huh. Because through the through the twins that she was given by Judah, she is now an ancestor of Jesus Christ. And there are only four women who are specifically mentioned within the genealogy, and she is the first. And she she provides the the example, the typecast for the other women that we'll see further down through the biblical narrative of all of the women who are mentioned are women who are not necessarily born in the covenant. Right. All of the women who are mentioned seemingly are foreigners. The reason I say seemingly is Bathsheba is one of the women mentioned within the genealogy of Christ. And it does not tell us specifically that Bathsheba is a foreigner, but we know that her husband is a foreigner. So for that reason, I think that we can reasonably conclude that she was not born into the covenant. Um, or at least in marriage, she was not a member, she was she was a Hittite, right? So all four of these women are women who originate as foreigners. And what's so striking to me about all four of these women is they are women who recognize the significance of the covenant and say, no matter what it cost me, I want to be a part of this. I am going to undertake action. I'm going to serve an active role within the narrative. And I'm not going to be passive. I'm going to grab this thing and cling to it for all that it's worth because I believe that there's something to this. And so the fact that these women are people who who are active, who serve active roles. They're not passive. And they're people who who recognize the significance and they're people who make a way for themselves when there wasn't a way. Right. Right. And I just think that that's so beautiful and so significant because women in the ancient Near East, they, they had no rights. You know, we we've spent time in this episode talking about how they were property, right? And the fact that these women say, you know what? I am going to be actionable. I'm going to, I'm going to make agency for myself. And I'm going to convert to this covenant that I believe in. Right. Because you you see that with Tamar here, that she has a greater appreciation and reverence for the covenant than Judah, right? You see, you see Rahab and you see Ruth, who both are foreign women who are like, I believe that there's something to this and I'm going to choose this for myself. Right. And then you see Bethsheba, who has no agency at the beginning of her story, but undertakes agency and says, I want this for myself and for my son. I'm going to ensure that this passes on to him. And so I just think that there's so much significance and power in that in people. It's, and it's not even that they're women specifically. I mean, them being women reinforces the fact that they're outliers, they're othered, right? They're people with no rights, seemingly no agency. But they look at covenant relationship with Yahweh and they say, I have to have that. And they do whatever it takes to get it. And that positions them to be in the genealogy of Jesus Christ. And I just think that it's so beautiful because, you know, Jesus comes and makes a way so that we don't have to do any striving. And we don't have to put in any effort. All we have to do is believe on him. But the fact that he comes through women who are are strong, are powerful, are active women in each of their narratives and are foreigners who recognize and say, I need this, I am going to convert to this.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:34

With each woman, I see um what you've you've pointed out, the they're foreigners, okay, that they're brought into the covenant. And I go ahead, I run forward to the New Testament, and how the entire the entirety of the Gentiles were foreigners, and we're we've been brought into the covenant. And how there's neither male nor fem female, there's neither Jew nor Greek. We've all been made one in Christ Jesus. And I that's what I see as I look at these women in the narrative. I see I see that representation. It's like a glimpse of what's coming. And so um that's I I love their stories because I we all were foreigners. We were all we were all enslaved, we were all isolated, we were all away with no hope of the covenant until Jesus became the one who literally tore down every wall of separation and brought us into the family of God. And so um I just I love it when I get to sit with you and examine the lives of the the women in the old covenant and those who who would not be denied and who saw something and they would they would strive for something that was greater. And um at some point I'm sure we'll we'll break down the all the ones in the genealogy. And so uh you said earlier which one of Jacob's sons had the uh the the greatest narrative and the lineage and that kind of stuff. I love it because Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah and he came from the line of Judah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:25

Right. And that Jesus, as the way, came through these women who seemingly had no way and provided the way for for all. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:38

So it's just, I mean, it's beautiful stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:40

And I'll be glad when the church catches up with scripture.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:43

Yeah, yeah, you and me both. Many, many people will be. Um there there is so much more that could be said and that should be said, and we in a few weeks will be embarking on a journey throughout the entirety of the book of Genesis. So we'll be returning to the character of Judah, and we'll talk about him and his name, significance, and all of those things in due time. But uh until then, uh, I think that we've reached a nice conclusion place on this particular chapter. And so since we are concluding, you are up for priceless pulpit. So what do you have for us today?

SPEAKER_00 1:48:20

Uh I've gone back and forth on what to share, and I'm going to share when it happened when I went to the funeral.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:26

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:28

Um, of course, I was a woman. Let's see, in lineup with with a couple of men, and um we got we went to the cemetery and I was given instruction that I was to read two Old Testament um scriptures. One, of course, went on Psalm 23, which I could quote, and then um through five verses from Psalm 46, and um I realized I did not have my Bible in my hands, and had I had my Bible, it would have been either New King James or New American Standard or something like that. But my nephew happened to have a Bible in his vehicle, and I grabbed it, and I walked up to the little um podium there at the graveside, and his his Bible was the um NIV. And so I read the um 23rd Psalm out of the NIV, and then I read um Psalm 46, verses 1 through 3, and verses 10 and 11 out of the NIV. And um then a gentleman stepped up, read uh two scriptures out of the New Testament, and then the committal prayer was prayed. And so I went over because people were coming up and talking about the funeral and different things that had gone on. And this my sister came to me and said, This lady wants to talk to you. And so I'll just be honest, I really thought my expectation was when I turned to her was she was because I had made note of this lady in the eulogy and And said some nice things about her. I really didn't know her, but I'd said some things about her based on the perspective of the person who passed away and how they viewed her. And she came up to me and she said, What were you reading? And I said, What do you mean? She said, That scripture. Where was the leadeth? Restoreth. And I said, Well, you're quoting the King James Version. She said, Well, that's the right one. That's the first one. I said, Well, uh personally, uh We could debate that.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:36

You mean the Bible wasn't written in King James?

SPEAKER_00 1:50:40

That was not the original language. And so I said, We could debate that. And so she was like, but I don't understand why you did that. And I said, Well, I read from the NIV, well, what's that? So anyway, uh, that was my priceless funeral moment. Um, priceless pulpit moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:02

How shocked do you think people are gonna be when we get to heaven and God doesn't speak to us in King James?

SPEAKER_00 1:51:10

I think a lot of people are gonna be shocked. Everybody thinks we're gonna go to heaven and speak English. Yeah, I know. And and King James English, if I if there's a language of heaven, I really think it'll be Hebrew, and you'll be in good shape.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:27

I'll be ahead of the cover. No, I think there's gonna be I think there's gonna be a lot of languages in heaven. I mean, that's what Revelation says. So people people are gonna be thinking about people are gonna be shocked by that that people are speaking different languages.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:40

So that's that's another hand.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright. So until next week, I guess this has been Good Fruit, Good Root.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:52

Hopefully, I'll get more rest and be more awake.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:55

I I need you to talk more. Okay. You have so much to say. Okay. So um, but we will be returning. We'll actually be recording another episode in just a couple of days' time. So, so but we will hopefully be more awake and alert. But uh, I think this has been a good one, all things considered. I think I talked too much, but that's my only real complaint.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:15

I don't have that complaint.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:16

Well, all right, we will be back with another episode next Friday. Until then, this has been Good Fruit, Good Root, Shalom.