On Wrestling With God (Genesis 32:1-33:12)

Join hosts Denise and Kyla as they delve into the story of Jacob at the Jabbok. What's in a name? What can be found in the midst of a willingness to wrestle? How essential is it that we as humans embrace the mandate to wrestle with God? How can God transform us while wrestling? 

All of this plus a thorough examination of Esau as a type of Christ can be found in this episode!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Shalom and welcome back to another episode of Good Fruit, Good Root. I am your host, Kyla. And I am your host, Denise. And I'm laughing at her because every time before we record, we make sure that we open the drinks that we are going to keep here at our disposal before we start recording. And not 30 seconds ago, I said, okay, I'm going to go ahead and open my water before we get started. And as soon as I hit record, Pastor Here decided that would be a good time to open her water. So if you heard that, I apologize. Again, it's some ASMR. Just before we started recording, she opened her Alani and like did the little fizz and everything. And she was like, I could do that into the microphone and maybe we could get a sponsorship. So, Alani, if you're listening, you fuel our podcast recording. I don't, I don't know that a Alani sponsorship. Alani and Jesus. Alani and Jesus, yes. Amen. I don't know that a Alani sponsorship is in our future, but hey, I'll hold out hope for us. How are you doing today? I'm doing good. Are you really? I really am. Are you are you are you really? I know that there's a little bit of disappointment lingering in you today.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Yeah, there's some disappointment, but uh I'll I'll I'll get over it and I'll be okay. Because I think it's ultimately for the good.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yes, yes. The disappointment we're talking about is we're we are recording this episode in advance as we did with two episodes ago. You know, we recorded about a week in advance. This episode we're recording six days in advance because this coming week I'll be visiting one of my really, really good friends, Shay. Shout out Shay in DC. She's lived in DC since we completed our undergrads, and she's now about to move home. So I'm gonna go spend a couple days with her to just, you know, kind of put a put a cap on our time in DC together. But today is the first day of preseason play in the WNBA, and Pastor's favorite player, two of her favorite players actually, are on the injury report for today. They're not gonna play in the preseason game. But now that we've we've come to the conclusion that they're they're just saving their legs for for the opening game, I think that she's she's okay with it now. I'm okay with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but she woke when I woke up this morning, Pastor was in a little bit of a mood because of the fact that Lexi Hull was on the injury report.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Lexi and Aaliyah, I mean, my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

But now that the Alani is is coursing through her veins, she's in a little bit of a better mood. Yeah. Um, what else is going on? Anything else?

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Just somebody celebrating a birthday.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. By the time this episode has come out, I will have celebrated a birthday. Um for some reason, I I think that once you pass, I don't know, somewhere, somewhere in your early 20s, once you pass a certain birthday, it's like it just feels like another day. Uh-huh. But I always really do look forward to like all the birthday messages. You know, I I like getting to hear from people that maybe you don't hear from throughout the year as much. So, so I mean, I am looking forward to my birthday, but I don't know. 28 isn't really an age I've ever looked looked forward to. Uh 27, my entire life, I looked forward to turning 27. And the reason for that is uh Pastor and I are built very similarly, like our heights are the exact same, and just generally speaking, like our health trends seem to be very similar because of our builds being so similar. And you always said when I was a little kid, I always remember you saying 27 was the best you ever felt in your entire life. And so I looked forward to turning 27 for that reason. I just thought, like, physically speaking, I was gonna be in peak shape at 27. And then also it's my golden birthday in the sense that you know I turned 27 on the 27th.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

So I I looked forward to it for that reason. And 27's been fine. Hasn't been my favorite age, I don't think, but it's it's been fine. So maybe maybe 28 will be all that I hoped that 27 would be.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

It it's it has a chance to be that. I think it will be. I think it's gonna be a good year. I think this is gonna be a really, really good year for you. I really do.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

I I believe so, and I hope so. Um, but yeah, anything else? Um I think that my phlegm is better. I'm not maybe not a hundred percent, but closer to like 90.95 than I was at our last recording.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Right. These these weather changes and the pollen that's now in Pennsylvania has been messing with both of us, but hopefully we'll sound clear and our people listening will be able to understand us.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yeah, I hope that your voice does better this time than than last episode. You your voice just went out on it in the middle of recording the last episode, but we'll we'll see how today goes. I believe it's gonna be a good one. I'm really, really excited for our biblical passage today.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

So am I, and I love your excitement for this passage.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Yeah, this is absolutely one of my favorites. And I know I feel like I say that about every every passage we discuss, but the truth is, you know, every passage of scripture is my favorite at a different point in time because it strikes you so differently each time you approach it. But this one, this is I would say one of my two absolute favorite passages in scripture, the other being Genesis 37. Those are like my two that I always go to. So, but before we jump in to today's passage, we have to do God wink of the week. Yes, and you're up this time. So do you have a God wink for us?

SPEAKER_03 6:33

I do have a God wink, and um this past or Sunday was a week ago before when I went to open up service. I um felt like the Lord had laid something on my heart for for the people. It was like it wasn't the message, it wasn't the um, you know, it was it was just something that I felt like he spoke directly to my heart and asked me to challenge our people with. And that was that we pray and we find the hidden parts of ourselves that we've not fully released to the Lord. And uh, when I was saying that, oh me of little faith again, I'm standing there and I'm thinking, nobody's getting this. And so um, so I asked him, I said, This is your challenge. In the few weeks we'll be ministering on this. And so I quoted from uh Psalm 51, um, where David said, Search me, oh God, know my heart, try me and see if there's any wicked way in me. And so pulled out that scripture, gave a challenge. At the door, I had so many people come by and say that they were going to take that challenge, and just that little uh moment there, minister to them. And that night I went to our life group, and uh it's a life group that I'm in and out of, and I don't even have the book that they're studying or anything. And I sat down at the table, and as the uh instructor was going over the lesson and that kind of stuff, she just stopped right in the middle of it and she said, And here's this scripture that has stood out to me all day. Search me, oh God, know my heart. And then when we got to the end of the lesson, that was the culmination scripture, and so just having those, you know, I thought, because I stood there and thought, is this me or is this the Lord? And then for him to take it and bring it back, you know, that was like his wink to me, saying, Yeah, daughter, you really are hearing me. And so, and I can't wait to see what God does through this challenge and through his word.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

I think it's really neat that my God wink last episode was something that I said at a transition moment of the service, and God bringing it back and having it be something that was brought out in another um in another way in our church, and that it was what the children's church had as their memory verse that day. And now your God wink for this episode is something you said at a transition moment in the service, and it was brought out in another small group meeting in the church. So that's really neat, and it just shows that you know, so sometimes those transition moments in services we almost treat them as an afterthought, as if they're not part of the main like continuity or the main emphasis of the service itself. But I think that the fact that both of those moments have now panned out to be important in other areas in the church just goes to show like nothing escapes his notice, and the Lord is intentional even in the moments that we maybe think of as an afterthought, like he's being intentional and trying to communicate something to his body and his church. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

So I've always been one a pastor who didn't want any wasted moments in service, and the fact that he's honoring those times where I feel like, oh, this isn't something we're just getting through. I I love I love that. And it means so much to me that he would handle it that way.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. Well, so before we jump into our central text for the day, um, I don't have any games per se today, but I just have a a couple of introductory questions here at the beginning before we dive into the passage. And the first question is you brought up in our our previous episode when we began talking about Jacob, uh just the notion of wrestling and wrestling as a sport.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Um, and I believe you mentioned that it's kind of like the longest continuous sport.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

It is. It's actually the oldest sport in human history. And then as far as a continuing thing as a sport.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Yes. So uh I just wanted to ask, you know, as someone who is married to a coach and a coach that, you know, had involvement in a lot of different organized sports, what what exactly is your relationship to wrestling? How do you feel about it as a sport?

SPEAKER_03 10:54

We're in Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Yeah, I know. We're we're about to reveal the capital of the world. We're about to reveal ourselves as transplants, I think.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Exactly. To me, wrestling is the one of the most boring sports to watch. Uh-huh. And one wrestling match, I didn't return.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Do you feel about wrestling the way you feel about the Rockettes? Yes. Once you've seen them kick, you've seen the whole thing. Once you've seen one wrestling match, you've seen them all. Okay, well, I I at the risk of us getting canceled, you know, if you're a wrestler, please, we're not prejudiced against you in saying this, but I I feel similarly. Wrestling is not my favorite sport by any stretch of the imagination. And I think I think I'm someone who appreciates quite quite a few sports, like a great many sports I can find enjoyment in, you know. If you were to just ask me off the cuff what my favorite sport is, I'd tell you baseball. Like I I love baseball, especially live baseball. But obviously, and I'm a big basketball fan, and college football is huge for us. And, you know, I I will pretty much watch most organized sports if they're available to me. Wrestling is the one that just doesn't appeal to me. And I wish that it did because I would like to appreciate it. One of my best friends in high school was a wrestler, and not even his involvement could get me to really appreciate it all that much. And then I've been to with him actually, and his wife at the time, who was who is my absolute best friend. We went to a college wrestling match to see Kyle Snyder because he was a big fan of him at the time. Um and it was uh NC State was the was the university that we were at watching uh their their college wrestling program. And even then, like I maybe someone just needs to teach me more about wrestling, so I can't appreciate it, but like the point system and everything, it just I don't understand it. Maybe if I understood it better, I would be able to appreciate it. But as someone who really enjoys sports, for some reason, wrestling just doesn't appeal to me the way that other sports do. And I've even been to like the the original Olympic training grounds for wrestling in Greece, uh-huh, and it just it didn't work. Yeah, so I I have tried, wrestlers, if you're listening, I have tried to appreciate the sport. Maybe, maybe it just needs to come to me at the right moment. Maybe at some point in my life I'll develop an appreciation.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Yeah, and we applaud those who discipline their bodies because wrestling is a sport where you really, really have to discipline your body to be ready week in and week out. And I applaud them when I applaud the sport. I just write me off. You know, I I'd rather watch paint dry on the wall.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

I think that that might be part of the reason that I don't appreciate it too, is that like I'm somewhat prejudiced against it because having friends that participated in it in high school, like I remember there being weeks where like they basically didn't eat. And I remember like them carrying around water bottles and just spitting into the bottles all the time, and it just it seems so barbarian to treat your body that way. And I guess that it is because it's you know almost a prehistoric sport, exactly even. So, but today we're gonna be talking about a story in scripture that hopefully gives us somewhat of an appreciation for the act of wrestling. And here's the thing although I don't necessarily appreciate wrestling as an organized sport, I appreciate the concept of spiritual wrestling. I think that's something that I engage in quite a bit, and so I have to have a sincere and deep and abiding appreciation for it.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Yes, I I I do too. And since I've had a greater revelation, and it was through the original Hebrew text that you brought to light, um I understand now throughout my life that there's I've been wrestling with with God, and so and he he he likes that. Most people don't think that, but he does.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yes. Well, before we before we begin reading in Genesis, uh one further preliminary question here for you that I have is have you ever wanted to change your name?

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Have I ever wanted to change my name? Yes. When I was younger, uh because as we talked about in the last episode, my first name is Deborah Deborah, Deborah Denise Hill, and uh Percival now.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

But anyway, um You just put your full government name out there. I did, I did. But you don't know how to spell it. Yeah, well we're gonna talk about that in just a second, but continue.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Anyway, um I wanted to drop the the Deborah when because in school teachers wanted to call me Deborah, and I wanted to be called Denise. And so I lived many years thinking I wish I could get rid of Deborah, but I'm in dear I'm endeared to it now.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

What about what about Denise? Let's be honest here. What do you mean be honest? How's your name spelled on your birth certificate? I just said I'm not gonna release that information. Well, I'll tell the people it's D-E-N-E-E-S-E. That is how your name was spelled on your birth certificate. And did you okay, did you fully realize that? Like, did you carry that knowledge before trying to go get a passport? No, I did not. Okay, so let's let's tell this story. Okay. Because, you know, I just shared that I was in Greece and saw the original like training grounds for the Olympic wrestling. I went to Greece to study abroad the summer between was that summer? It was between my freshman and sophomore year. No, no, sophomore, sophomore and junior year. Sophomore and junior yeah, it's 2018. Um, I spent a full summer in Greece. And in order to go, I had to get a passport. I did not have a passport yet. And so you went with me to the passport office, right? Right. And you became aware that you were basically ineligible for a passport because your legal first name according to your birth certificate, and your legal first name according to your driver's license are different. Yes. Because in life you had always spelled your name, the the traditional spelling of Denise, D-E-N-I-S-E.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Yes, and that will be on my grave.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

We'll we'll see. I mean, you won't be here, but um so the you had spelled your name that way, the traditional spelling, or the the most traditional spelling, I guess, on your driver's license. Social Security. Yeah, so did you go through life thinking that that was the way your name was spelled?

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah, I always thought that was the name way my name was spelled.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Okay, so you didn't know that on your birth certificate it was the double E. I did not know that. Okay, and you became aware of it and have since worked to rectify it so that you can get a passport.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Yeah, yes, I've had to get my driver's license with the EESE on it, and then I've had to get my social security card, and I had to go through all that before I could get a passport.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

So you have wanted to change at least the spelling of your actual name or the name that you go by.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Uh-huh. I I have wanted to change that. So you got me there.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, so so let's be really honest here, Mama. If you're listening, we love you dearly. Uh, but how how would you, on a scale of one to ten, grade mama's ability, your mother's ability to name children?

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Her ability to name children. She did okay. She did okay, all right. Um well uh with the squirrels, she put her the name she wanted to call us in the middle, so that that that made it difficult for us. Yeah, so but you know what? Evidently, somebody thought my mom did really good at naming us because they named their children after my sister and myself.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, so so that story, that this is one of my go-to like icebreakers. Um, if if I have to share a story, uh my my my my number one icebreaker is that I'm Saturday Night Live's official biggest fan. But one of my uh one of my lower registering icebreakers is I like to say that one of my aunts was named after my other aunt, and then tell the story of the fact that my dad's brother is married to my aunt Drinda. Um, and Aunt Drinda and her sister Debbie are named after mom, Pastor, and my Aunt Lean Leen, Charlene. And so the way that this happened, jump in and correct me if I get anything wrong, but your grandfather, my great-grandfather, um was a pastor, a preacher, an evangelist, and he traveled and he preached a sermon that Aunt Drenda's mother was present for, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Actually, he pastored at Union Grove and she attended there for a very short period of time.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Wait, she went to Union Grove? Uh-huh. Wow, I never knew that. Okay, okay. But anyway, she heard Daddy Golden preach and mention his granddaughters, Debbie Denise, Deborah Denise, and Drinda Charlene.

SPEAKER_03 20:27

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

And so she, when she later had children, named her daughters Debbie Denise, right? And Drenda Darlene. Correct. And then they grew up in Alabama, question mark? Montgomery. They grew up in Montgomery, Alabama, and then through a crazy twist of fate, Aunt Drinda met a Percival, you met a Percival, and you guys married into the same family, and she is named after your sister, and her sister is named after you.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

So you have an aunt. Well, I guess you have two aunts named Drenda.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Well, I mean, one's one's an in-law, so I don't really know how that works, but but yeah, so that that just always blows my mind. Yeah. So as much as we make fun of Mama's ability and talent for or lack thereof when it comes to naming children, someone out there thought that she did a really good job because they also named their children for her children's names. Yep. So you're not gonna give her a grade on a scale of one to ten. You don't want to go in the doghouse, do you?

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Um she's supposed to come visit us in a few weeks.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

I'm afraid if she hears this. She won't. She won't. Um I so just to pull it back to my perspective here, I have wanted to change my name at different points in my life. So my my name is Kyla, obviously. And my father's name is Kyle. And so my go to response typically when people ask me my name and I say my name's Kyla, there's a little bit of confusion at first of Kylie, Kayla, oh men Cooper, my name. You is always like, why can't anyone say your name right? Because it look it's said exactly how it's spelled, K-Y-L-A. And he's right. But I I've I've grown grown accustomed to people being confused by the pronunciation of my name. And so my go-to response is always, my dad's name is Kyle. They were very creative in naming me. My older sister's name is Michael, M-Y-C-H-A-L, and I'm Kyla. So I I joke sometimes off-handedly, like, oh yeah, my parents were really good at naming girls. Because Michael and Kyle with one letter changed. Makes it seem like you guys really wanted a boy. But anyways, I I wanted to change my name when I was little because no one could pronounce it. And you know, it got mistaken for dad's name when written down a lot. And I have a very vivid memory of being probably about six or seven, and we were visiting Aunt Pam and Uncle Mart in DC at in Del Marva. And I wanted to change my name to Ginger. And I wanted to be Ginger primarily at that point in my life for two reasons. Number one, because I love Chicken Run. She did. And the protagonist chicken's name is Ginger, right? Isn't that an interesting? And then Roger is the boy chicken. And then, wait, I guess he technically he's a rooster, but he's portrayed as a chicken, isn't he? That's well, never mind. That's another thing. Um, but secondly, my favorite film overall at the time as a six-year-old was Swingtime, which was a Fred Astara and Ginger Rogers movie. So her name was Ginger. And then, you know, later in life, Ginger Spice would be my favorite spice girl. But I remember distinctly being, like I said, like six or seven years old and saying, Oh, I want my name to be Ginger. And then I remember Jen, my cousin, we were like standing somewhere and she was trying to get me to move, and she's like, Ginger, ginger. And obviously I didn't respond to that because I'd never been caught that in my life. So I quickly was like, Oh, I guess I don't need to change my name because that would be too difficult for me to remember that people are gonna call me something different now after six years of getting accustomed to Kyla. So I have wanted to change my name, and I specifically wanted to change it to Ginger. Have you had you as a child given any thought to what it was that you would have preferred to be called? Did you just want to be Denise?

SPEAKER_03 24:24

I would have been fine, fine with Denise. Um, so I was a a tomboy, as they used to call us. Okay. And so I would come up with little boy names.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

That's funny. Well, did you have a favorite? Is wait, pause. You would come up with boy names and then you named your daughters Michael. Yeah, this must be something in my style or something. But with one letter change. Uh-huh. Now now I'm seeing. Maybe it's not that you wanted a boy, maybe it's just that you preferred boy names.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Well, um, after my little brother died, I think I would I was looking for a little male boy figure in my brain. Okay. And um, so yeah, I would, you know, one of them was Lance, because his name was Michael Lance. And so I would come up with names like that. But um, I was reading, I think it was the boxcar children. Oh yeah. And there was a boy named Benny in there, and I love the name Benny. And my last name was Hill. And I grew up and found out that Benny Hill was a comedian that I didn't want to have anything to do with.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Oh, I love the boxcar children as a kid. Um, yeah, I I have always loved naming things. And as as a kid, I can remember, like I I like to write, and I would write stories, and in my stories, the families would always be extremely large because I wanted to give names to everyone. Wow. And so I loved, I loved naming things, and I loved getting pets primarily because I like coming up with names for the pets. And I'm one of those people that has always had my children's names picked out. Right. And that they've changed somewhat like when I was eight years old and I read Bridge Terabithe for the first time. I thought I was gonna name my daughter Leslie, and I held on to that name for a really long time. And then I remember in high school, Emily Wall, shout out Emily Wall, um, saying to me, like, you don't have to keep a promise that you made to yourself when you were eight years old. It's okay. You can you can change your name. And that set me free. Um, I still do like the name Leslie, and if I have more children than I anticipate having, I could potentially use that name. But my Michael, my sister, loves to make fun of me for the for the names that I have picked out. But I have just always loved naming things, and so I have my ideas, and I'm pretty set-installed at this point about what I want to name my daughters in particular. But that leads me to my final question here on the subject of names, which is how much attention did you pay to the meaning of names when you were naming your children?

SPEAKER_03 27:12

Oh, I I paid, I paid attention to to the meanings. Uh meanings of names um is one of my favorite things to research and that's that sort of thing. And I think because of a particular name change in scripture, um, I realized that just the meaning carries so much weight. And so I wanted to make sure that yours, your name and Michael's name both um had significant biblical meaning. And so, and when I do baby dedications, that's I research the names and I give scriptures that tie to the names and that kind of stuff. And so there was reasons within the family that I that I gave the names that I did, but it was also because of what the names meant. And then I like the syllables. Yeah, you do like your syllables. Michael Riley, Kyle Ashley, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Oh, you put my full government out there, okay. Uh yeah, I I'm very cognizant and very aware of name meanings, and I think I get that from you. I do too. Uh, but that's something that that I'm very interested in and want to be very intentional about when it comes to naming my children is you know, speaking over them through their names. You know, we talked in our previous episode about how people don't bless their children verbally, but I think you can install a blessing through your child's name. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

And that's that's why I did it.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah. So now last thing, Michael. Which meaning do you did you have in mind for Michael? Did you when you named her Michael, obviously you're naming her after Mike, your brother, but the spelling of her name is much more similar to McCall in scripture. So did you have the meaning of who is like God or does like have the meaning of it's Brooke, right? Doesn't McCall mean like a a babbling brook or something like that? Uh I thought Riley meant a babbling brook. Does it? I thought, well, McCall has to mean something to do with water because it starts with the with the mem.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

So yeah, I had the one who was like, Yeah, it means brook stream.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

So I thought, well, Riley and Wow, you wow, no w no wonder, no wonder she talks so much. You named her doubly. I did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Cause I I didn't see. But I was I went with that spelling because it looked more feminine. And so that that's and I, you know, changed the Idaway, N Y C H L. And so, but I was one who was like God, is is what I was had in mind. And then um Riley, your dad kind of swoop swooped in with that one. And uh it's a family name, but it means it's like a a babbling brook. And she started talking at six months, and guess what?

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Yep. I like the name Riley, I really, really like the name Riley. And I used to say that I wanted to name one my boy if I had a son, Riley Michael, and Michael was like, you can't do that. So we'll return to that debate when I have a son one day. But it should come as no surprise after us having spent so much time talking about wrestling and about names and the idea of changing names, that the primary passage we're gonna be in today is Genesis chapter 32. But before we get there, I do think that we need to offer just a brief summary here of the events that transpired in the life of Jacob between Bethel and where we're gonna find him today, which is at the Jabbok, right? And so I guess we'll just do, like I said, a very brief summary here, and we will return to we're gonna we're gonna walk through the entirety of the book of Genesis in probably a couple of months here. And when we do that, we will go through each chapter and give it the depth and the discussion that it is that it deserves. But here today, I think that the the primary things that it's important to make note of is that, you know, when we left Jacob in our previous episode, he had just left his father's household. Right. Right. Um, because of his trickery and treachery that he perpetrated against his brother Esau. He left because Esau made the threat that he was going to kill him. And he went to the land of his mother, specifically his mother's brother Laban, was that was the household that he was seeking out. And so Jacob embarked on his travels and then he encountered God at Bethel, right? That's where he experienced the manifest presence of God and the gateway to heaven, and then he named the place, and that's where we left off, right? And so Jacob continues with his travels, and he finds himself coming to the land of his mother's birth, and he meets Rachel, who is a shepherdess of her father's sheep, and he moves a stone that is blocking the water from the sheep, and that's how he endears himself to Rachel. And I did just want to make brief mention of this because I think it's so interesting. You know, we said in our last episode that Isaac and Rebecca are the first couple that scripture makes sure to note specifically that they loved one another. Rachel and Jacob are the first couple to share a romantic kiss.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

They kiss after he provides the water. And I just think that that I think that firsts in scripture are so interesting. First mentions, okay. Yeah. So Rachel and Jacob kiss. Jacob falls in love with Rachel and he wants to marry her, but Laban tricks the trickster. You know, we talked about how uh Jacob's name is is often rendered as trickster in terms of meaning. And Laban tricks Jacob, which is so ironic and funny when when you have the understanding of the Hebrew language, because Laban means white or pure. So it's like the ultimate irony that the pure one tricks the trickster, right? So Jacob thinks that he is laboring for the opportunity to marry Rachel, and on their wedding night, uh, Rachel is not who he marries. He marries Leah, and when he wakes up the next morning, he realizes that he's been duped. Um, he worked seven years to to be given Rachel's hand, and instead he's given Leah. And Laban offers uh the explanation of in his culture, they don't marry younger daughters off before the older daughters. So Jacob has to continue to labor in order to be given Rachel. And so he is given Rachel. So Jacob has two wives. Each of his wives has a a nurse, a midwife, a servant. Um, and both of them are given to Jacob in order for him to consort with and have children. Their names are Bilha and Zilpah. They're all we always skip over them. Have you ever noticed that that pastors never are are giving credit to Bilha and Zilpah? Yeah, I think because they worried about giving the explanation as to why it was okay for them to Yeah, they don't want to wade into the morality of him you know having relations with women that he's not married to. Um, but I think that they deserve the credit that they're due, that they are mothers of some of the tribes of Israel. That's right. And and I also think, you know, it's it's important that we acknowledge that there are things in scripture that are unsavory. You know, we talked in our last episode about how when we hold the patriarchs and the matriarchs up as these just startling examples as if they never did anything wrong, that we cheapen the value of the biblical text. And the fact of the matter is, you know, Zilpah and Bilha, they had no agency, right? They had no rights. They were essentially sex slaves. And I think it's important that we be honest about that. That as much as you know, we revere these characters in scripture, they still exist in a very depraved world that doesn't value women at all. And that these women are often subjugated and mistreated and placed in situations that are seemingly impossible and very difficult. So Leah is not beloved by Jacob the way that Rachel is. Um, scripture's very, very specific in the fact that he loves Rachel and it's kind of just seems like he tolerates Leah. Leah is also described as having cow eyes. I feel so bad for Leah. Like she gets, she just gets the the short end of the stick in every possible way throughout the biblical narratives here. But the one way that she's not getting the short end of the stick is the fact that she's very fertile and she begins having children, and Rachel is barren. She's she's not having children. And so even though Jacob loves Rachel, it seems that Leah is being favored by God and by the household because she's having so many children. Um, so then Rachel gives her maidservant, Leah gives her maidservant, and Jacob is just having all these kids, right? And then finally, um, well, one thing that I did want to make mention of before we mention Rachel having her first child is that Rachel is barren in the same way that Rebecca was. And Rachel goes to Jacob and begs Jacob for for her to have a child. And Jacob says to her, Am I God? Like, who am I? What what what say do I have over that? Which is so ironic to me, because when Jacob's mother was barren, his father beseeched God and made intercession for his mother so that her womb would be open. And here, Jacob he doesn't do the same. He does the precise opposite. He essentially is content for Rachel not to have children. And it's just, it's the it's again, it's the precise opposite of what his father did. And it's just the ultimate irony that, you know, that is what was necessary for Jacob to be born, was for a man to make intercession on behalf of his wife, and Jacob can't even do that.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Um, so he doesn't make intercession, he doesn't intervene on Rachel's behalf. But eventually scripture tells us that God remembers Rachel. And Rachel finally has a child. That child, of course, is Joseph. Um and then Jacob, he he finds favor with the Lord, and he's able to tr to trick Laban, essentially, into acquiring a greater flock, right? And so he he amasses, you know, wives, uh, maidservants, all this entire household of riches and resources. He has uh 13 children. Um well, I guess Benjamin hasn't been born yet yet, but but he has 11 sons, and he has Dina that is specifically mentioned. And his household just grows and grows and grows, and it reaches the point where Jacob decides that it's in his best interest to return to the household of his father, Isaac. So Isaac is still alive. It's been 20 years, uh-huh, 20 years since Isaac acted in his own timing. Yeah, he thought he was dying, he he was going blind, and he gave the blessing away, but he's lived 20 more years, and Jacob purposes to return to Isaac's household, but he leaves without telling Laban goodbye. He makes an Irish goodbye and he takes Laban's daughters and begins traveling back to the land of his birth. And Laban doesn't take too kindly to that, and part of the reason he doesn't take too kindly to that is because his household idols have also gone missing. And so Laban follows Jacob. He makes, he makes chase after him. Once he realizes that he's gone, it takes three days for him to notice that he's gone, and he begins chasing after him. And eventually he catches up to Jacob and his entire household. And when he tells Jacob that he's offended, because not only has Jacob taken his idols, he's also taken, not only has Jacob taken his daughters, he's also taken his idols. Jacob offers this response and he says, Whoever you find your idols with, may they surely die.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Um, not knowing that his preferred and beloved wife, Rachel, is who has taken the idols. And so Laban begins searching for the idols, and they can't find them because scripture tells us specifically that Rachel has hidden them in the saddlebag of her camel, and when her father comes, or she's actually put them like under the seat that she's sitting upon on her camel, and she looks at Laban and says, Oh, I'm so sorry, father. The way of woman is upon me. Uh-huh. So I can't get down. So she tells a little fib there in order to hide the idols, a fib that most women can probably relate to having told at some point in their lives. That's one of my favorite biblical euphemisms, by the way, the way of woman is upon me. And so Laban doesn't find the idols, and then he strikes a covenant with Jacob there, and then Laban goes back home. And what one of the things that I find so interesting in that narrative, just briefly, is that Jacob says, Whoever you find your idols with, they should they shall surely die. And that again reinforces something that we talked about in our previous episode, which is that once you say something, uh-huh, it can't be retracted. Exactly. And Jacob had no idea what he was saying. He didn't take the care, he didn't undertake the due diligence to figure out who it was that he was cursing with his words. And he cursed the woman that he loved. And this is a biblical principle that I also find borne out in the story of Esther, right? That Hazarus the king, when he says that all Jews should be killed, he has no idea that he's condemning the woman he loves to death. How often is it true that we as humans make general sweeping statements against types or groups of people, having no idea that people that we love are within that group? Exactly. You know, when when we generalize and we say, oh, everyone of this lifestyle or everyone who makes this choice or everyone who wrestles with this type of sin, you know, oh, they're they're just horrible. How often are we speaking against people whom we love?

SPEAKER_03 41:39

I think I think very often. Because as you as you and I have said, it's it's easy to make a sweeping statement about a people group. Okay, but it's different when you're standing across from somebody and you're looking at an individual in the eyes. And so I think um our mouths have outran our actions and our, you know, many, many times. That's why I believe that you know the Bible says guard your mouth. And you guard you guard your heart and you guard your mouth. And um, and out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So what is when this when we make statements like that? It should it it tells our heart.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

And so Jacob again has no idea that he condemns his wife to death. That's right. But we find that Rachel dies a premature death not that long after this, you know, doesn't happen immediately, but it happens just a few chapters onward that Rachel's going to die.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

And it's because of the words that Jacob spoke. And I just I don't think that we as humans oftentimes are fully cognizant of how easy it can be for us to speak death, for us to speak condemnation. And once we speak those things, we can't retract them.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

That's right. Um, it's actually it's word curses, is what it is. And so we speak things and it's a curse, it's the curse of death or whatever. And that's that's just just like we can speak blessing, we can speak curses.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

And I think it's it's so tragic that we as humans are likely more prone to speak a curse aloud than a blessing. Exactly. Because when we're just quick with our words, oftentimes we end up speaking negativity more than positivity. And if if we would just get an accurate picture in our brain of how strong and how powerful our words are, I think we should and hopefully would speak blessing more often.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

I agree. You're exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

So thematically, one thing that we see throughout all of these narratives that transpire between Genesis 27 and Genesis 32. Is Jacob is still missing the point, much like he was in the narratives that we read last episode. Jacob just isn't quite getting it. You know, he he every time he refers to Yahweh, to God, he refers to him as the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac. He's not yet the God of Jacob. He doesn't have this personal relationship with God yet. And, you know, he he still is relying somewhat on trickery and treachery. You know, he's not the kind of person that looks someone in the eye and deals with them honestly. You know, he sneaks away from Laban in the midst of the night. He's, you know, wishy-washy and uh flippant with his words. He's not someone who's has a personal relationship with God and who the way that he deals with people springs forth from that relationship that he has with the divine. He he to put it very succinctly and frankly, he's not very mature yet. Even though he he's gotten married, he's had children, he's amassed a fortune, he's had all these lived experiences, he lacks spiritual maturity. And so the story that we are going to read today kind of marks the turning point in Jacob's life. Is he perfect after the story? Absolutely not. He's still gonna be human, he's still gonna fall short, he's still going to have to continue on his faith journey in order to mature spiritually. But this is the watershed moment, the the moment of transformation in Jacob's life. And I think that, you know, we we all would do better if we could grasp that we have the moment of transformation, but we're we're not perfected beyond that moment. We're being transformed. Right. We're continually, yes. Um so was there anything that I didn't mention that you think needs to be mentioned before we get to Genesis 32? You covered it well. Okay. So the story that we will be dealing with today is, of course, Jacob wrestling the divine being at the Jabbok. And are you ready to read first? Yes, are we starting at verse one? Or which verse do you want to start with? You can start at verse one. So we'll we'll, you know, close out the Laban story and then continue.

unknown 46:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

All right. Uh early in the morning, Laban kissed his family and bade them goodbye. Then Laban left on his journey homeward. Jacob went on his way, and angels of God encountered him. When he saw them, Jacob said, This is God's camp. So he named the place Menanium. Jacob sent messengers ahead to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, the country of Edom, and instructed them as follows, Thus shall you say to my Lord Esau, thus says your brother Jacob, I stayed with Laban and remained until now. I have acquired cattle, donkeys, sheep, and male and female slaves, and I send this message to my Lord in the hope of gaining your favor. The messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to your brother Esau, he himself is coming to meet you, and there are four hundred men with him. Jacob was greatly frightened. In his anxiety he divided the people with him and the flocks and herds and camels into two camps, thinking, If Esau comes to the one camp and attacks it, the other camp may yet escape. Then Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, O eternal one, who said to me, Return to your native land, and I will deal bountifully with you. I am unworthy of all the kindness that you have steadfastly shown your servant, with my staff alone, I cross this Jordan, and now I have become two camps. Deliver me, I pray, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau, else I fear he may come and strike me down, mothers and children alike. Yet you have said, I will deal bountifully with you and make your offspring as the sands of the sea, which are too numerous to numerous to count. After spending the night there, he selected from what was at hand these presents for his brother Esau, two hundred she goats, and twenty he goats, and two hundred ewes, and twenty rams, thirty milch camels with their colts, forty cows and ten bulls, twenty gennies, and ten jackasses. Then he put in the charge of his servants, drove by drove, and he told his servants, go on ahead and keep a distance between droves. He instructed the one in front as follows When my brother Esau meets you and asks, Who's your master? Where are you going? And whose animals are these ahead of you? You shall answer, Your servant Jacob's. They are gifts sent to my Lord Esau, and Jacob himself is right behind us. He gave similar instructions to the second one and the third, and all the others who followed the tropes namely. Thus, and so shall you say to Esau when you reach him, and you shall add, and your servant Jacob himself is right behind us. For he reasoned, If I propitiate him with presents in advance, and enface him, perhaps he will show me favor. And so the gift went on ahead while he remained in camp that night. The same night he arose, and taking his two wives, his two maid servants, and his eleven sons, he crossed the fort of Jabak. After taking them across the stream, he sent across all his possessions. Jacob was left alone, and a figure wrestled with him until the break of dawn. When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he rinsed Jacob's hip at his socket, so that the socket of his hip was strained as he wrestled with him. Then he said, Let me go for dawn is breaking. But he answered, I will not let go unless you bless me. Said the other, what is your name? He replied, Jacob. Said he, your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with beings divine and human, and have prevailed. Jacob asked, Pray tell me your name, but he said, You must not ask my name, and he took leave of him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, meaning I have seen a divine being face to face, yet my life has been preserved. The sun rose upon him as he passed Penil, limping on his hip. Then while the children of Israel to this day, that is why the children of Israel to this day do not eat the thigh muscle that is on the socket of the hip, since Jacob's hip socket was wrenched at the thigh muscle. Looking up, Jacob saw Esau coming, accompanied by four hundred men. He divided the children among Leah, Rachel, and the two maids, putting the maids and their children first, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph last. He himself went on ahead and bowed low to the ground seven times until he was near his brother. Esau ran to greet him. He embraced him, and falling on his neck he kissed him, and they wept. Looking about he saw the women and children. Who, he asked, are these with you? He answered, The children with whom God has favored your servant. Then the maids were the children came forward and bowed low. Next Leah with her children came forward and bowed low, and last Joseph and Rachel came forward and bowed low. And he asked, What do you mean by all this company that I have met? He answered, To gain my Lord's favor. Esau said, I have enough, my brother. Let what you have remain yours. But Jacob said, No, I pray you, if you would do me this favor, accept from me this gift, for to see your face is like seeing the face of God, and you have received me favorably. Please accept my present that has been brought to you, for God has favored me, and I have plenty. And when he urged him, he accepted. And Esau said, Let us start on your journey, and I will proceed at your pace.

unknown 51:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Wow. There's there's so much here, and it never fails. I can I can read this passage, this narrative in scripture, a million times, and every single time something new strikes me. Like I had notes prior to you reading it, but as you read it, I made more notes because it's just so good. I mean, all of scripture is so good, but this passage in particular, it just gets me every single time. Um, so what we have here is Jacob acting in fear at first, right? Because he hears that Esau is coming. And the last thing he heard from Esau was Esau's threat to kill him. Exactly. That's why he went on the run 20 years ago. 20 years ago he ran because he was scared of his brother. And now as he's making his return, he he's overcome with the same fear that's originally sent him on the run, right? Because he's terrified of what it is that Esau is going to do to him. And so we see him, you know, he he prays to God, he makes strategic decisions. Uh, I always have to point out because it it makes me laugh every time you laughed a little as you were reading it, the blatant favoritism on display here, because Jacob literally sends people out in the order in which he's okay with them dying. Exactly. Right? He sends the maidservants and their children first. Then he sends Leah, and then finally last, Rachel and Joseph. So poor, poor Leah. I mean, I guess poor Zilpa and Bilha, too. That you know, they're they're the ones that are on the chopping block. They're he's okay with them dying. Uh, so that just always strikes me as funny that you just see how clearly Jacob is able to make his favoritism known. But as I said, you know, Jacob, he's anxious about what it is that Esau's going to do to him. He divides up his camp and he sends them on ahead. He he keeps himself for last. You know, that he's he's the one that needs to be protected and preserved. Um, and he has this conversation with God, right? Where he's like, Oh, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, you know, you promised me all these things. Um, and he he he asks to be to be kept safe, and then he's left alone. And this is when the wrestling occurs. So, like I said, there's there's so, so, so much here. And I I want to break it down um and discuss a few key points, but what what jumps out at you here at the beginning of this of this passage? I would like for us to work our way through it in crop um in chronological order if we can. So, what what's the first thing that stands out to you here?

SPEAKER_03 54:21

Once Laban's gone, the first thing that jumps out to me is Jacob is going on his way, and it says, and the angels of God encountered him. And so, um, you know, he's the one that had the encounter with the angels when he had the rock as his pillow. Okay. But while he is going, he's separated from Laban and he's on going on his way, his return, and the angels of God encountered him.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

And that just that that that's overwhelming to me. It's such a powerful image, and then it's also so interesting to me because the angels of God are traveling with Jacob and he's still afraid. Right. It it again it points to the lack of spiritual maturity that he has, that he has angels encamped round about him, and he's scared of a man, right?

SPEAKER_03 55:18

And that's that is we have angels encamped around about us, and think about our fears, okay, because later it says how it talks about how greatly frightened he was. And then he started making these decisions. This is jumps out at me in this text. It says, in his anxiety, uh-huh. Okay, so we know that he has the angelic, the angels of God around him, but he is still acting out of his fear and his anxiety. And that's where so many uh Christians and people live, they live out of fear and anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Yeah. And it's you know, as much as we said that it's it was funny that he sends his household out in order in which he's okay with these people being killed, like that's really cruel. Uh-huh. Like, think think about that. Think of what that communicates to to the people in the decisions that he's making, you know, that that he's okay with these these people dying, essentially. You're dispensable. Exactly. You're you're expendable. And that, like I said, it's it's cruel, it's callous. And when you make decisions out of anxiety and out of fear, you're going to be cruel. You're going to be callous. You're not going to be compassionate. You're not going to be kind. Right. And we see that on full display here. That when you allow negative emotions to motivate your decisions, your decisions are likewise going to be negative. You cannot make a positive decision out of a negative emotion. That's right. And so Jacob, Jacob typifies that for us here. Um, yeah, it says he was greatly frightened in his anxiety. He divided the people with him. This also, in light of us having just had the conversation in our last episode, where Isaac is so characterized by anxiety and fear, and he, you know, he trembled greatly, trembled, tremblings. I think that it's interesting to see that it's almost like Jacob has a genetic component to his anxiety. You know, do you do we think he would have been as anxious of a person if he wasn't raised by an anxious father?

SPEAKER_03 57:23

Uh I I think being raised by an anxious father greatly contributed because as as we look at as we've been looking at these passages, you see things that go from generation to generation to generation. And so I feel like that fear and anxiety was instilled in him. It was modeled before him.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

And you know, as we said in the last episode, Genesis is, as Dr. Erica Brown said it, it's a great manual for raising leaders, but honestly, it's a horrible parenting manual. And we see that Isaac and Rebecca in their humanity, in their sinfulness, you know, they they messed up their kids in specific ways. And so I think seeing that Jacob struggles with anxiety, you know, that's an example of something that, as you said, was passed from generation to generation. But it's not the only thing that's passed from generation to generation, because the first thing that I highlighted, the first note that I have is Jacob's first bit of dialogue when he's praying to God, which says, he says, Oh God of my father Abraham's house and God of my father Isaac's house. So he is describing God according to God's relationship with his grandfather and with his father, because he himself does not have a personal, intimate relationship with God yet. So the only way he knows to refer to God is God of Abraham, God of Isaac. He's not yet the God of Jacob. And so that that immediately jumps out to me. Uh the next thing I have is two verses down. Did you have anything between there? Okay, two verses down from there. He says, Deliver me, I pray, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau, else I fear he may come and strike me down, mothers and children alike. So I highlighted, I fear he may come and strike me down. And the reason I highlighted this is, you know, as you've already read, the name Israel means I have striven with God and with man and have prevailed. I have striven with God and with man and have prevailed. And what's striking to me here is that Jacob fully expected to wrestle with man.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

He expected to have to strive with man for man to attempt to strike him. He did not expect to wrestle with God. And I think that, you know, that that's an expectation that a lot of Christians share. We expect to come against man.

SPEAKER_02 59:52

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

We expect to struggle with our fellow human being, but we don't necessarily anticipate having to struggle with God. And I think it's to the detriment of our spiritual maturity and our spiritual walk that we don't embrace the scriptural mandate that we're going to have to wrestle with God. And so I also think it's again richly ironic that we expect to wrestle with man when scripture tells us that, you know, we wrestle not with flesh and blood. Humanity is not where our struggle lies. Right. But to take that a step farther, we expect our struggle to be with dark spiritual forces, right? Because scripture does tell us, you know, that our we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities. But we also wrestle with spiritual forces of light. And I just think that one of one of the things that is to the greatest detriment of the modern American evangelical Christian church is that we have embraced this passive relationship with the divine. We think that acknowledging the sovereignty of God means that we must remove our agency in our relationship with Him. And nothing could be further from the truth, right? God doesn't desire a passive relationship because a passive relationship isn't really a relationship. It becomes one-sided. And the reality is that God created humans to be different from the other divine beings that he created because we can contend, right? We can struggle, we will engage in conversation and even beyond conversation, debate and dialogue, right? And that's the desire that God has for his relationship with human beings. And for whatever reason, it's almost like the conclusion has been drawn that if you contend and you struggle with God, that you're not acknowledging his sovereignty, right? That we've almost made it seem disrespectful to desire to contend with God. But the reality is that is his desire for our relationship. Relationship is not meant to be simple, relationship is not meant to be easy, right? Right. And God wants a people who are willing to contend, who are willing to engage in dialogue with him. You know, and we talked about in our last episode about Isaac bringing his petition to God and Isaac interceding and intervening for Rebecca, right? And that's the kind of relationship that God wants to have with us. He wants us to bring our petitions, to bring our desires, to bring our requests to him.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

He doesn't want us to just be so inactive in our relationship that we're not conversational with him.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

That's why, that's why we're given choice. Yeah. Because um we've been granted that great privilege of choice because he could have easily made puppets and robots. But he didn't want puppets and robots. Right. He wanted people that would choose him, okay, and choose to have relationship with him. That's why he says, come, let us reason together. Come come talk to me, come, come share with me, come sit and let me speak to you. That's one of the uh greatest uh shortcomings we have, I think, in a lot of our uh churches is that we don't even expect God to speak to us. And he's always trying to speak to us, he's waiting for us to get in position to hear him. Okay. So he wants that, he wants that uh exchange. That is relationship, and relationship is messy. We're I was taught you can never ask God why, you can never question God, you can't ever, you know, express anything like that to God. You just and I was born inquisitive. And my my my grandfather took me home one time because I asked too many whys, you know, but that was that was in my nature, and I've always brought that to God. And when I when I listen, when I truly listen, and I get alone, and in the minute we find that Jacob was alone, I get to hear from him and I get to hear his voice. It may not be audible, but he wants he wants to speak to us, he wants to be able to have that power in our lives, and for us to have the power to come to him and to choose to come to him. Yeah, that's it. You know, you seem to enjoy my company. I do you seem to choose to be with me, and that means that means more than anything else in the world to me that that you choose to be with me. My heavenly father's like that when we choose him, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

But and isn't our relationship so enriched by the fact that we engage in conversation with one another? Yes, because it's in the midst of conversation that relationship can be sharpened and that personality can be changed. And I just think it's so funny and it misses the mark so greatly for people to think that your relationship with the divine has to be passive, and yet you're supposed to be being transformed. Uh-huh. How can I be transformed if I'm not engaged in conversation? Right. Like, in order for me to become conform to his image, I have to learn more about him. And I learn more about him through having conversation with him. And conversation cannot be passive. Both parties have to be active participants.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

That's right. For a long time, um, it's like people believe that being con being conform to him is something we could do ourselves. We had this list, and if you live by that list, then you were godly. Okay. And that removed the whole um, let's see. Element of relationship. If you could go check this off, you know, that's why I think you said it last um podcast work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. That is coming to God and letting him give revelation and reveal things to you. He doesn't want it all of us just alike.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

So yeah, I just you know, you you said at the top of this with your God wink of the week when you shared with the congregation about, you know, praying and beseeching God to reveal the hidden parts of you, right? And if you just suppress aspects of your personality and you don't bring them and contend with him about them, then he can't transform it, you know, if you just continue to ignore it. And so I also think that it's so interesting and again ironic that some people would almost treat it as disrespectful for you to contend with God because it's like you're not acknowledging his ultimate sovereignty, right? If if you're struggling with him. But I argue that the opposite is true, that it's disrespectful not to contend with him because it almost seems as if you're positing the idea that he can't handle your struggle. And the reality is God is so much bigger, God is so much stronger, so much more powerful than our wrestling. Right? He he can handle it. You know, you were talking about the way that it was almost frowned upon for you to come to God with your why. My thing is, God is bigger than my why, he can handle it. That's that's true. The best place for me to put my why is at his feet, right? Right. To bring it before his very face. Because the reality is ignoring it doesn't make it go away. It just pushes it further down.

unknown 1:07:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

And so God can handle your wrestling, God can handle your struggle.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:00

Yeah, and this is a little this will be really short. But when I was when I was six and my brother died, first thing I did, I already said I was an inquisitive child. The very first thing I did was ask why. And I had people come by me and say, you can't ask God why. And this you can you can't ask him why. And there I was in my six-year-old self saying, it's too late. That's the very first thing I did was say, why? And I thought I was condemned because I had asked the why. But I found that God came in my room and ministered to me even after I asked why. He came and he tried my tears, and he came and he was there with me beyond my why. He came in my why, and he's been walking me through my why for years. He's so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

He is. The next thing that I have for us to specifically talk about is in the verse that says, and you shall add, and your servant Jacob himself is right behind us. Do you have anything before that verse?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:08

Uh I've lost my place. Which verse is that?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

Um it's the verse immediately prior to, and so the gift went ahead. I don't have the numbers in mind. Uh all that transpires between the verse we just discussed and this one is the dividing up of like this many he goats, this many she goats, all of that good stuff. And so here we have Jacob giving these instructions to his servants that he's gonna send on ahead, and he says specifically, for he reasoned. So this is what Jacob's thinking as he's dividing these things up. If I propitiate him with presence in advance and then face him, perhaps he will show me favor. So this is this is Jacob's, you know, internal dialogue with himself of why he's trying to how he's trying to garner favor with Esau, right? And I've said it in a in a prior episode, and obviously I'm gonna make this point at the conclusion of today's discussion, but I think Esau throughout this story is one of the most beautiful types of Christ in the Old Testament, right? In the Hebrew scriptures, and we'll talk further about that later on. But I think that this right here introduces us to that concept.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

That we see that Jacob is a type of you know, humanity and Esau is a type of Christ here, because what's happening is Jacob is thinking, well, it if I do enough, if I do enough, I can make myself clean enough, desirable enough, good enough that I can step into his presence and then he'll show me favor, right? Jacob is afraid because Jacob knows that his prior actions, his sins, have made it such that he deserves to be punished when he enters the presence of Esau. But he thinks maybe if I do enough, I can make myself good enough that I can be granted his favor. And first and foremost, I think Jacob is modeling again for us behavior that he absorbed from his parents, right? We talked last episode about how Isaac's love for Esau was based on what Esau could do, right? And so here Jacob thinks that he can do in order to curry favor, right? And he can't, right? But this is how so many Christians and so many humans think of their relationship with Jesus Christ, right? We think, man, if if I can just do enough, I can seem clean enough that I can be granted his favor, right? There, if I just undertake enough actions, if I behave uh with enough goodness, but the reality is like that's never gonna work. There's nothing we can do to cleanse ourselves, right? Exactly. And we try to propitiate Jesus by behaving a certain way so that we're worthy to stand in his presence and receive his favor. With the the ultimate irony is Jesus is the propitiation for us. That's right. So we're trying to to propitiate the one that made propitiation for us. And so I just I just think that this speaks so much to the miscalculation that humans make. You know, we think we have to present a certain way in order to enter the presence of Jesus when the reality is only being in his presence can make us worthy. That's exactly right. So we we try to seem worthy to enter his presence when it's by his presence that we become worthy.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:59

Exactly. Um that's that's that's beautiful. And um we are human beings, not human doers.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

And we struggle with being. We struggle with being alone. We struggle with being, just being in his presence. We always feel like we've got we've got to do, we've got to earn. And um one of the most freeing things, you know, because freedom, true freedom comes in Christ, okay, and knowing him, spending time with him. That's when you you find true freedom. But our mentality of doing and earning and making everything just right keeps us from coming into that presence where we can experience that liberty and freedom. So we struggle with being.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:58

We do. We do. Yep. I'm I'm reminded of a line from NCIS Los Angeles. Um, you know, we said that if you look for Jesus and everything, you'll find him in all things. And uh, for those of you that don't know, you know, NCIS, my favorite television show of all time, but I went through a very intense NCIS Los Angeles phase as well. And there's there's an episode where Kinzie, my favorite character, is forced to come to this realization that she's based her entire life on doing. And she has to become comfortable with simply being. And Sam shares with her his personal mantra, which she ends up adopting, and it's just more being, less doing. Uh-huh. And I think that that's kind of a a message of the gospel. Yeah, I do too. That we need to embrace more being and less doing, because being in his presence, that that accomplishes so much more than any amount of doing ever could. So yeah, yeah, look at look at NCI-SLA. Um so then we find that that same night Jacob arose, he took his two wives, his two maidservants, his eleven sons, no mention of Dina, no, no mention of the daughter, poor Dina, poor Dina in so many ways in scripture. And then it says he crossed the ford of the jabbok. And I highlighted the word jabbok because in the Hebrew, jabbok literally means emptying, emptying, and so the the process of becoming empty. And Jacob has to be emptied, he has to become empty in order for him to encounter God. So it says after taking them across the stream, he sent all of his possessions across, and Jacob was left alone.

unknown 1:15:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

So Jacob is empty and he's alone. As humans, it's not a comfortable place to be empty, and it's not a comfortable place for humans to be alone, you know. Even if you're the ultimate introvert, you know, scripture has told us the one thing that was not good in creation was it was not good for man to be alone. Humans aren't comfortable being empty, and we're not comfortable being alone, but it takes Jacob being at this uncomfortable place of being empty and being alone for him to encounter God. And the reality is Jacob being alone, that probably hasn't happened in a really long time. That's right. You know, when Jacob, the last time Jacob was truly alone probably was Bethel. Uh-huh. Because he he encounters God there when he's alone, but then he comes into Laban's household, right? And he's got his wives and he's got his children, and he's got his maidservants, and he's got his household. And so Jacob, you know, imagine 12 kids. Jacob probably doesn't get to be alone very much. If Michael Riley is listening, you know, she only has three and she feels like she never gets to be alone. So it is so important that Jacob be left alone and that Jacob be left empty. He has no distractions. He has nothing else pulling on his attention. He, it is just him and the silence of the night. And I think, you know, as humans, we're so prone to try to avoid silence. You know, I think of me specifically at night, I have to have noise. I have to. And so I leave, you know, the television playing or something playing on my phone because I can't stand the silence. But sometimes we need the silence. Yes, we do. We need the silence to reset and we need the silence to hear from heaven. Because it's only when Jacob is alone and empty and quiet that he encounters God himself. Exactly. So, what what do you have? What's the next thing in your notes here?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:48

Well, um, I just I want to say something that's not necessarily right here. But you are that way. And I at night, I finally I have to have it go silent, but I have to have a noisemaker. But one thing that has always stood out to me about the two of us, when we're together, sometimes you and I can just sit with nothing on. We have actually gone and stayed overnight in hotels and never turn on the TV, never, you know, enter have any kind of outside source providing entertainment for us. And it's I think it's just because we can relax and enjoy being in one another's presence. And in this in the silence, we're okay and we're content. And we neither one of us feel like we have to manufacture something or make something happen. We can just be together. And so um, that's one of the things that I appreciate so much about our relationship, okay. And um, but we're when it says that Jacob was by himself, and like you have so aptly pointed out about the emptying and being the being in that uncomfortable place, because can you imagine what it felt like after all these years? Because what he had been doing was doing, he'd been doing for all this time, and now the night that he is so fearful and so afraid, there he is, right by himself in the silence, and he gets to have this uh defining moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:33

Yeah, and something that's really interesting is Jacob does his praying prior to this. He does his praying while he's still surrounded by noise. Uh-huh. And he doesn't hear back from God.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:45

Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:46

And I wonder how many humans, how many believers essentially do the same thing. Of we we check the box of crying out to God and raising our voice and praying, but we're doing it in the midst of the busyness. Right. And we wonder why we don't hear back from the divine. But the reality is Jacob had to be alone and be empty. And so, you know, I our listeners, if if they're wondering why they haven't heard directly back from God, you know, my challenge would be get to the place of silence and get to the place of solitude and get to the place of being empty of everything else, empty yourself of all distractions, and then see if you if you encounter and be prepared for the encounter to involve wrestling. That's right. Because that's what we find is that a figure wrestled with him until break of dawn. And so, you know, we get this such such vivid, such vivid imagery of Jacob wrestling all night until the break of dawn. And when the divine being hasn't won, he wrenches Jacob's hip out of its socket and he says, Let me go, for dawn is breaking. And Jacob says, I will not let you go until you bless me. I will not let you go unless you bless me. And the way that this is always preached knows that Jacob's desire was to be blessed, right? And so the divine being, God, says, What is your name? And Jacob says, Jacob. And then it says, said he, your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with beings divine and human and have prevailed. Your name shall no longer be Jacob. You know, we talked about the negative connotation of Jacob's name, that his name meant supplanter, heel grasper, or trickster. And here God says to him, you are no longer going to be defined by these unsavory events of your past. You you've messed up, Jacob. You have been a supplanter, you have been a trickster, but that's not how I'm going to define you. I'm going to do a new thing in you. You're not going to be called by the name, the title, the mistakes of your past. You're going to be called by what's happening now. That you have striven with God and with man and have prevailed. And it's so interesting to me because, you know, that this is a prophetic thing that's being spoken over Jacob. Because has Jacob prevailed with man yet? No. No, he hasn't encountered the man that he's so afraid of. And yet God is already calling him by an identity that Jacob is going to step into in the future. Right. And so it's just such a beautiful thing to me because this is what God does for each of us, right? When we encounter him, when we're willing to wrestle with him, when we begin to embrace him as our God, as someone that we've encountered for ourselves, then he does a new thing in us. And he lets us know we're not defined by the mistakes of our past, right? Whatever it is that we've done prior to encountering him, he puts that to rest. He says, You're no longer the trickster, you're no longer the sinner, you're no longer the one who's fallen short. But now I'm calling you into a new season because I'm doing a new thing within you and I'm giving you a new name. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:12

And I love it because Jacob said, I won't let go until you bless me. And guess what God does? He gives a blessing.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:22

Right. And but what's so beautiful to me is sometimes the blessing is the wrestling. That's right. Right. Because it's because he contended, it's because he wrestled that he's given this new name. And that's the blessing. And so so often we as Christians want our blessing to look a specific way. You know, it's going to be prosperity. It's going to be package blessing. Exactly. It's going to be this thing that we want. And the reality is that if Jacob had not have wrestled, he would not have been blessed. Because it's in the wrestling that he's redefined. It's in the wrestling that he's renamed. It's in the wrestling that he's repurposed.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:05

And so we have got to wrestle with God in order for us to fully step into the new thing that he wants to do in us. And so that wrestling means bringing whatever it is that we're struggling with before him, you know, bringing our anxiety, casting it upon him, you know, bringing our fear, bringing the hidden parts of us, the things that exist, you know, in the recesses of our mind that we don't want to deal with. We need to bring those to him. And we need to name them and we need to lay them at his feet. And we need to be willing to struggle over those things. Right. We sure do. So God renames him Israel, meaning I have striven with God and with man and have prevailed. What's the next thing you have?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:55

Uh let's see. I like the his name's been changed. Okay. Of course, Jacob wants to know the name of the being. He says, You you must not ask my name. And he took leave of them there. And then what does Jacob do? He changes the name of the place where he is. And uh he names it by his encounter and what's happened there, just like he did was to Bethel. Okay. Where he is now is now Peniel, which means I've seen a divine being face to face in my life, was preserved.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:32

And then I love the the next verse. There's a couple of different things that I have in this next verse, but it says that the sun rose upon him, but in the Hebrew there, uh, the preposition that's being used can also be accurately rendered as the sun rose for him. And I love that. I love that imagery of the sun rose for him as he passed Pinuel, limping on his hip. And the reason I love that is is twofold. First, that it is symbolic of the reality that Jacob has gained enlightenment, that light rises on the world for him in light of his wrestling. Right. Right. And so he has been enlightened by virtue of his having wrestled. So and I but I also love it in the sense that when you encounter God, when you meet him for the first time really, truly and intimately, it feels as if everything is happening for you. Yes. You know, when when you see the sunrise, when you when you behold the majestic beauty of nature, and then you think about the fact, wow, God created this and he created this for me to inhabit and for me to experience. And that's that's that's what happens for you when you embrace him as your personal Lord and your personal God, is suddenly it's like, man, this is happening for me. He set the universe in motion for me. And that's what Jacob is experiencing here. I I haven't used this as a god wink because it happened so long ago, but I think I might have used it as an example of what I what we were looking for in terms of god winks in our introductory episode. But I'll never forget, you know, this one point in my life, I was really having a spiritual struggle in a lot of ways. And I exited the the building of um our church gym and office, and it it wasn't snowing. I opened the door, I stepped out, and it began to snow. And the snow was falling down, and I just remember, like, you know, we're from South Georgia, we're not used to snow. And it was just such a beautiful snowfall, and it was so peaceful. And I looked up and I just was overcome by such an immense joy and peace simultaneously because it felt like God has sent that snowfall for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:51

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

That it was like stepping into a new season, you know, that that the winter was beginning, and it was just such a beautiful thing, and it Felt like it was specifically done for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:03

And that's what happens when when you have a genuine relationship with God, it feels like these things in nature are happening for you. That's what happened that's what's happening for Jacob here.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:13

Can I share just a little bit testimony here? The night that I relinquished my life to the Lordship of Jesus at eight years old, I'll never forget I got up in that little church with the wooden pews and wooden altars, and the whole place was brighter. I mean, it was, and it was because I had had an encounter with the divine and I had submitted to him. And when I'm I'm I kid you not, I will never ever forget that moment because when I cut came up out of that altar, it was like the whole place was brighter, and everybody's faces were even appeared differently to me because I had had such a I'd had a it was a it was a new a new thing. It was a new season in my life, it was a it was a new journey, and it was so fresh. And so I that's because I was a kid and that was my experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:13

So yeah, and that that's a very similar thing happened for me. And that's when when you encounter God, it is like fresh light is shined upon your life, and that's what Jacob is experiencing here. And then I I noted that it specifically says, you know, he passed limping on his hip because this is so striking to me. Jacob wrestled with God himself, right? Does God have the power and the capacity to heal Jacob's hip? You know, God wrenches the hip out of socket in order to get Jacob to relinquish his hold, right? But when God departs, could God heal the hip? Absolutely. But he doesn't. And why is that? Why is it that Jacob is almost seemingly punished for wrestling with God when you know we're talking about the fact that we need to wrestle with God, right? And I think that the point is this that it's symbolic that when you encounter God, when you meet him face to face, when you deal with him intimately and personally, and when you wrestle and contend with him, your walk is forever changed. I fully believe that. So Jacob never walked the same way, he walked differently beyond his meeting with God. Right. And that's that's how we as Christians should be. When we encounter God deeply, intimately, personally for ourselves, our walk should never look the same. We don't walk the way that we walked prior to meeting him.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:46

Because we're on the way of salvation.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:49

Right, exactly. So then, you know, we get this brief little interlude here that tells us that that's why children of Israel don't eat meat from the thigh muscle or from the hip. And then looking up, Jacob sees Esau coming, right? And then this is when he specifically has sent them in order. We get the order in which he sends them here, and then we get the reunion with Esau.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:17

And it's completely not what Jacob has expected or anticipated. Um for 20 years, he has lived with this fear and this anxiety that if he ever saw his brother, his brother was going to kill him. And he was, he was, he was, it was a death sentence. Okay. And then we we get what happened here with Esau.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:43

And you know, I pointed out earlier that Jacob anticipated he expected to wrestle with man. But what we see here is after he wrestled with God, uh-huh, he didn't have to wrestle with man. That's right. And that's true for us. That if if we will really wrestle and contend with God, the other wrestlings that we expect to have in our lives will they'll sort themselves out.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:06

They will.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:07

And so, you know, Jacob had this expectation of Esau meeting him, still in a righteous fury over what it was that Jacob had done to him. But scripture tells us Esau ran to greet him. He embraced him and falling on his neck, kissed him and they wept. And that's just that's such a beautiful intimacy depicted there to me, that they kissed and they embraced and they cried together. Could not be further from what Jacob was expecting. But he gets this beautiful and loving embrace from his brother. He expected his brother to try to kill him, and instead his brother greets him with a kiss.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:47

Can I ask you a question? Yeah. As you're as we're looking at this narrative, does it run the parallel to the New Testament, to the story of the prodigal?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:58

Oh, absolutely. Um, and it, yeah, there's so many parallels.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:04

This verse right here makes it uh, you know, you see the father running off the porch to embrace the son. It literally says falling on his neck in the prodigal.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:16

And the the irony is that, you know, Jacob's expectation has been that Esau would behave like the brother in the narrative of the prodigal son. Right. But we see that Esau is behaving like the father, you know, greeting him with a loving embrace. Yeah. So it's just it's it's yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, again, this this adds to my theory that Esau is meant to be read as a type of Christ or as a type of how God treats us and views us, because that's who that's the role that Esau is taking on here in the New Testament narrative, is the father that embraces the wayward son when he returns. Um, so then you know, we see that Esau asks Jacob about the people that are with him and everything, and Jacob responds, Do you have anything I just I just think it's so neat that Esau not only is he embracing Jacob, but he's ain't he's excited about who's with Jacob.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:19

So he's not just embracing Jacob, he's he will probably would embrace all of them if he could because you know he he's excited, he's happy for Jacob. And he's excited for what Jacob has accumulated and what for you know what Jacob has. Okay. So that stands out to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:36

Yeah, and then you have Esau asking Jacob about the gifts that Jacob sent to try to propitiate him. And he saw says, I have enough, my brother. Let what you have remains remain yours. And then we get this verse. This is the note that I made as you were reading. It says, But Jacob said, No, I pray you, if you would do me this favor, accept from me this gift. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, and you have received me favorably. First off, just the power and the beauty in that statement, because now Jacob knows what it is to see the face of God. He has seen God face to face. And for him to look at his brother and say, to see you is like seeing the face of God. He knows the fullness of what he's saying, he knows the significance of what he's saying. And he's saying, brother, to be reconciled to you, this reconciliation with you, this is like seeing the face of God. So there's so much going on here. First, again, this reinforces the theory that Esau is meant to be taken as a type of Christ. Secondly, that when we are reconciled, when we're rectified, when we're brought back into right relationship with our fellow man, God is reflected. That's exactly right. In that we find God in the midst of reconciliation. Like, there's just, oh, that's so beautiful. It is. And for Jacob, as I said, to have just seen the face of God. And for Jacob here to be being reconciled with a brother that he never expected reconciliation with. You know, he thought, he thought that because of his own wrongdoing, yeah, that he could never expect to have a loving embrace with his brother. Right. And to find that relationship again and anew, he says, this is like seeing the face of God. And I just think that it would be so powerful and so amazing and so incredible if we as human beings, when we move throughout this world, would recognize and expect to find the face of God in the midst of our relationships with each other. You know, so so often we only want to see God in God, uh-huh, but we should seek God in our fellow man. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:05

That's um because that's where he can be found. Uh-huh. That's where he longs to dwell. Yeah, that's where we can we can't not only, and I'm gonna be careful how I say this, okay. We sometimes expect to see God in our Christian brothers and sisters. Okay. But I believe we can see God even when we look in the face of the lost. Absolutely. Because they're everyone is created in his image and in his likeness, and God is always reaching for the lost, and he's he's wanting to bring that person, that individual, right back to where they were created to be in his presence. Okay. But we so many times we just expect to see God in the church, and we just expect to see God in people that are just like us. And we miss so much of seeing God because we won't let the scales fall from our eyes and see the world out here that God so loves and that God is so reaching for. And until we start seeing others as being created in his image and being created in his likeness, and we start looking for God out there, we'll never reach those out there and bring them to God. And uh again, the theme for weeks in at new life and all. And even here we hear it again and again and again and again. It's reconciliation, being brought into relationship with him.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:49

Yeah, well, I mean, that's that's the entirety of the gospel. That's right. It's it's God seeking to reconcile humanity to himself.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:57

And so it through us.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:59

Yeah, and that's that's why the ministry that he has entrusted to us is the ministry of reconciliation. And yeah, it but as we've said many times here, you know, you you know, you said we often are looking for him in the places that we expect to find him, you know, in the lives of other believers. But we've said it many times. When you look for Jesus in everything, you find him in everything. You know, all things were created by him, and apart from him, nothing was made that was made. So we can find him in any human being. We can find him in any relationship, we can find him in anything and in everything, because everything was made through him, by him, and for him. Amen. So Jacob says that seeing Esau is like seeing the face of God, for you have received me favorably. And then he says, Please accept my presence, uh, which is brought, which has been brought to you, for God has favored me, and I have plenty. And when he urged him, he accepted. And then it says, And Esau said, Let us start on our journey, and I will proceed at your pace. This this is one of my favorite lines in all of scripture. Because first and foremost, this tells me that Esau sees, recognizes, and accepts Jacob precisely as he is. That's right. Esau recognizes that Jacob's hip has been wrenched out of socket. He knows that Jacob is not going to walk with a typical walk. And Esau says, That's okay. I notice your handicap, I accept it, I allow you to set the pace. And this is exactly what Jesus does for all of us. When he encounters us, when he reconciles us through his very being, and he embraces us and receives us favorably, he looks at us, he takes note of us precisely as we are, and says, I will walk at your pace. We'll begin on this journey together. We'll walk the Via Salutus, the way of salvation together. And whatever pace it is that you can walk at, that's the pace of walking. It's basically what he did for Peter just a couple episodes ago, where he says, All right, I'll meet you in the midst of this phileo love. I'll meet you in the midst of this slow, stumbling walk, and I will partner with you and I'll grow you to the point where eventually you'll be able to walk at a greater pace. But right now you set the pace and I'll walk alongside you. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:30

This is where I kind of sit back and go, wow. Because um Esau was let's take it the way at the pace you can walk it, brother, and I'll be right here with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:46

And see, Esau doesn't have a handicapped kid. He doesn't. He could be walking so much at a at a more convenient, faster pace.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:54

Walking like you walk in New York City.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:57

Yeah, I I I listen, I like to walk and I walk pretty fast. I got long legs and I intend to use them. But that's Esau, you know, could presumably Esau's a bigger man than Jacob, you know, because he's the man of the wild and the man that loves to hunt and the man at the outdoors. And he doesn't have a limp. But he looks at he looks at Jacob and says, you know what, we will take it at your pace. And so, you know, as I've said before, Esau is such a beautiful type of Christ here. Because who is Christ to us if not the older brother who was entitled to the ultimate inheritance? And yet he freely gave it to us. He gave us his birthright and he gave us his blessing. And, you know, we we've been tricksters, we've been sinners, we've been people that aren't deserving of the kindness that he's poured out on us. And we, in our human, fallible expectations, we often expect that when we come into the presence of him, our divine brother, that he's gonna meet us with judgment and condemnation because it is what we deserve. But that's not how he greets us. That's right. He greets us with a loving embrace, with a holy kiss. And then he looks at us and he says, I have plenty, you keep what's yours. Let's walk on a journey together, and I'm gonna walk according to your pace. That's how our brother greets us, even though we deserve the harsh, condemning, judgmental greeting. That's not that's not how he meets us.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:32

That's right. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:34

And so, yeah, it's just there's there's so much Jesus revealed here in this in this narrative in the Hebrew scriptures. It's almost like he's in everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:43

I was just gonna say it.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:44

It's almost like he's from Genesis to Revelation, maybe. Yeah. But so Jesus is revealed to us here, and then also our ultimate mandate is revealed to us here, right? Because we all are and should desire to be a people in covenant relationship with God. You know, God's elect chosen people. But in order for us to be like the nation of Israel, we have to be willing to contend. Yes, we do. We have to be willing to wrestle because that is definitionally what Israel means. I have striven with God and with man and have prevailed. So we have to become a people that are comfortable with wrestling and with wrestling with God. You know, he he wants to be part of an active relationship with us. And that means not everything's gonna be easy. Some things are gonna be a struggle, but God is bigger than our struggle and he can handle it.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:38

So you you quoted it earlier, but I have to go to Isaiah chapter 1, okay, verse 18, when you know it's often rendered, you know, in the King James Version, everyone quotes, Come let us reason together. But what it literally says in the Hebrew is, come let us contend, come let us debate, come let us wrestle, come let us struggle your case over your case, says the Lord. Though your sins are as scarlet, they shall become white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, they shall be like wool. And so what God is inviting us, what what cleanses us of our sin, what reconciles us to Him, what brings us into right relationship with Him, is a willingness to debate, to struggle, to wrestle. That's what brings us into the purity of Christ. That's what takes our red sin and makes it white as snow, is our willingness to wrestle with God. When we wrestle, that's when He can transform us. When we wrestle, that's when He can rename us. When we wrestle, that's when He can repurpose us and begin to do a new thing within us.

unknown 1:45:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:46

All right. I've had I've had three wows in the last few minutes. Was there anything we didn't mention that you wanted us to mention about this story?

SPEAKER_03 1:45:56

I don't I don't think so. The only um one thing that occurred to me while we've been discussing today, and I I kind of mentioned it, alluded to it already, is that for 20 years he wrestled with this unfounded, this basically unfounded fear and unfounded anxiety. And we live in a world right now where people are so overridden with fear and anxiety, you know. Some people are fearful to wake up in the morning, some people are fearful to go to go outside their house. There's just so much fear and anxiety in the world. And when he got to the thing that he dreaded, when he got to the person that he feared, then um there was no all that fear and all that anxiety for 20 years was unfounded. Okay. And so when being with God, being in his presence, wrestling with God, hearing from God, when he becomes when that becomes our chief, the chief means our chief purpose of our existence, okay, because we will reverence and fear and love him so much, and we'll the fear of man will begin to fade away. Okay. And so um, spending that time with him, the invitation, come to me and let's wrestle, let's struggle. If we'll do that, we'll find out that because we sing the face of God, we will not fear the face of man.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:33

Yeah. The final the final point that I want to make is I I hope that people have recognized this already, but if it needs to be pointed out explicitly, I want to do that now. That if we want to be like Christ, we have to be like Esau. And we have to look at our brothers and sisters and recognize the pace of their walk. Right. And recognize, you know, their their handicaps, their shortcomings, and say, I'm willing to walk alongside you and I'm willing to proceed at your pace. That's right. And I think that we have a mandate to look at our fellow believers and say, you know what? I'll wrestle with you. I'll be with you in the midst of your wrestling. And whatever you sh whatever your struggle may be, I'll I'll be present with you in the midst of that struggle. And then we'll continue along this journey together. I won't forsake you, I won't leave you because of your struggle. But in the midst of your struggle, I believe that you can and will encounter God. That's right. And be transformed because of your struggle. You know, it's not in spite of, it's in the midst of not it. God doesn't transform you in spite of your struggle. God transforms you in the midst of your struggle.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:50

That's good for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:51

Well, I'm up for priceless pulpit. Yes, you are. So, and I have I have a very apropos one this week. So, as I've said, you know, this is one of my absolute favorite passages of scripture. So surprise, surprise. I've taught it many, many times. And one of my favorite times teaching it was teaching it to my kids' church congregation. And so I remember distinctly telling this story and talking about Jacob and Esau and talking about, you know, the fact that Jacob's expectation was that Esau had held a grudge against him for 20 years. And so I remember really emphasizing the 20 years, because you know, when you're speaking to four and five-year-olds, 20 years is incomprehensible to them. So you're like, so much time has passed, you know, it's been so, so, so long. And so I remember I asked specifically, um, I had I had, you know, many pairs of siblings in in the children's ministry. And so I asked generally to the congregation, I was like, could you hold a grudge against your sibling for 20 years? For 20 years, could you hold on to that anger? And one of my students, Chloe, very confidently immediately was like, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, I couldn't. You know, it was very funny because her sister was in the class as well. And so I was like, oh poor Alexa, my goodness. And so Chloe was like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it was her response, it was immediate. Yes, absolutely. I could I could hold a grudge against her for 20 years. And then she turned the question on me and said, Could you like it was a challenge? And like she was she was a greater conviction because she could hold a grudge for 20 years. And so as I've said before, my best friends Sarah and Emily would help me in children's ministry. So Sarah was standing up on the stage with me enclosed, like, could you hold a grudge against her for 20 years? And so I actually wrote the dialogue down the day that it happened because I thought it was so funny. So she I said, Could you hold a grudge and introduced her for 20 years? And she immediately said yes. Could you hold a grudge against her for 20 years and pointed at Sarah? And so I said, Sarah's my friend, not my sister. And she goes, But could you? And I said, I don't think so. And she goes, interesting. She was superior because she could hold a grudge for 20 years. So shout out Chloe. Um I hope that whatever Alexa had done to you that made you respond that way, that you've since forgiven her. Um but yeah, that was that was a real funny one when she just immediately turned the challenge on me. She was amazed. Oh, yeah, very much. I'm sure Chloe's gonna crop up in quite a few of these priceless little bits. But all right, is there anything that we haven't said that needs to be said? I don't think so. All right, well, this has been a really fun one. I do enjoy it a lot. So thank you, listeners, for tuning in to this episode of Good Fruit, Good Root. We will be back next Friday with yet another episode. Until then, I'm your host, Kyla Shillong.