Jacob: From Birth to Bethel (Genesis 25:19; Genesis 27; Genesis 28)

Join hosts Denise and Kyla as they begin examining the life of Jacob. Does it cheapen the Biblical text for the patriarchs to be viewed as paragons of goodness?  In what ways do the patriarchs and matriarchs serve as cautionary tales? How sympathetic of a character is Esau? And how is the nature of God revealed in Jacob's encounter at Bethel?

Plus listen as we select our Mount Rushmore of Biblical figures with whom we identify!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Shalom and welcome back to another episode of Good Fruit, Good Root. I'm your host, Kyla. And I'm your host, Denise. And we're so glad to be with you today. How are you doing today, Pastor?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

I'm doing pretty good. I'm better today than I was yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Okay. Better today than yesterday. That used to be a motto for a school system I was aware of.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah, I've heard that a few times. But I'm better because you're better.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

I am better. Let's go ahead and address the elephant in the room. I am a little bit flimmy. I I never like the sound of my own voice, but I'm particularly distressed about what it might be sounding like in this recording. So I probably won't be listening back to this episode anytime soon, other than in the editing process. But yeah, I've I've had some congestion and some sinus issues that have not been pleasant this past week, which has prolonged our non-recording period. You know, it's been two weeks since we recorded last because we recorded two episodes in the same week, and then I was out of town last week, and then I've been unwell this week. So we've gone a long time without having a conversation here recorded for the pod. So I'm interested to see how this goes. I feel like I am the antithesis of Phoebe and Friends, you know, the episode where she's flimmy and she loves the sound of her voice and she wants to maintain the flim so that she can continue to sound that way. I'm I'm not like that at all. I've been trying to get rid of this. Uh and I've just about just about come out on the other side, but sorry for the for the sinus ASMR that this might be providing for our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

I could only imagine Phoebe singing smelly cat through phlegm.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, yeah. She liked the way it sounded. She thought that it it gave her voice, you know, a raspy quality that she enjoyed. So it's not not having the same effect for me, I'm afraid. Uh but yeah, you know, I always love a good friends reference. Anytime I can get one in, I like to do that.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

I've actually seen you run like Phoebe.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yes, in Central Park. You have to do you have to do the Phoebe run when you're when you're visiting New York. It's breakfast at Tiffany's and the Phoebe run in Central Park are are two essentials. Uh but yeah, so we like I said, it's been it's been a minute since we recorded. Um lots of things have transpired in the world and in our lives. I I had a really good week traveling, uh, even though going back and forth between the climate of South Georgia and then back up here, that's probably what messed up my immune system. But, you know, getting to go do Bible quiz in eastern North Carolina was great. And then I was back home in Tifton and got to spend some time with Mama and with the babies. I got to see Gavin. That was that was a lot of fun. Uh got to see Cooper in a baseball game and Jameson and a T-ball game. So all really, really good things. So that's all well and good. And then in the world of sports, my San Francisco Giants have managed to win a couple of games, so that's exciting. And WNBA draft happened, and AZ Flood went number one, so thank goodness for that. And now here we have women's basketball starting up, and the WNBA preseason games start the day after tomorrow, and I know we're both excited about that. So, so a lot a lot of good things, a lot of good things. Um, so I have to I have to be well to enjoy all of the good things that are going on.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yes, you do, and I'm excited about our little uh fantasy basketball league.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yes, yes. So for listeners that maybe were were paying attention to our family wager for uh March our March Madness bracket challenge. We have extended the wager through fantasy women's basketball, so WNBA Fantasy League, and we have some some full participation for our family in that. Everyone has actually participated and drafted a team, so we'll keep you guys posted on maybe who has to who has to get the tattoo at the end of the league play. Pastor's just hoping and praying it's not her.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

It will not be me.

unknown 5:03

All right.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Um so any anything else happened in the in the past couple weeks that you think Bears mentioning here? It's just it's been a while, so I just want to check in, make sure we're not skipping over anything.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

I think we pretty much covered.

unknown 5:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

So I'm up for Godwink of the Week. It actually has been uh so long since we last rec recorded that we had a little bit of a back and forth argument over who got to do Godwink this week. And it it is me. Uh, we went back and checked checked the records there. And uh one thing that was really cool is in the past week we had a member of the congregation come up and share with us that she has started using the vocabulary of Godwink, like explaining to people, oh, when that happened, that was God winking at you. So I think that that's so neat that you know we're we're introducing vocabulary and nomenclature with this pod. So but uh I had a lot of a lot of options to select for my Godwink this week because, you know, as I said, I got to go spend quality time with people that are very important to me. And I got to enter, like I encountered some some media this week that really spoke to me. But I think that what I'm gonna have to go with for my ultimate God wink this week, because it fits so perfectly with what we are discussing today, is that on Sunday morning, you know, I w I wasn't feeling well already on Sunday morning. I I knew that I wasn't a hundred percent, I was not as unwell as I became later that evening. But um, you know, I just wasn't feeling my best. And you you had told me before service started that you were gonna have me transition the service at offering time. And so, you know, I was thinking about, oh, like what am I, what am I gonna say? I don't really have my normal energy levels that I have on a Sunday morning. And I had been reading that morning in Genesis um and actually a passage that we will be discussing today, and I just felt very impressed upon by the Holy Spirit that that's what I was supposed to share in service. And so I did when I was transitioning the service um towards the offering. I shared a scripture, I shared, you know, Jacob at Bethel when he says uh that God was in this place and I did not know it. Surely this is the very dwelling place of God, surely this is the very gateway to heaven. And I I you know charged the church that we should, I never wanted it to be said of us that we were unaware of the fact that God was present. When God is manifestly present, I always want to have an an awareness of that, and I want that to be the case for the church as a whole. And so I shared that and I could see our children's pastor Julie in the at in her seat near the back of the sanctuary, like her face just lit up, and I was like, oh, okay, like Julie's right here with me. She's enjoying what I'm saying this morning. And you know, that gave me a little bit of um a boost as I was saying it to get even more excited when you can see the excitement on the faces in the congregation. And so, you know, praise and worship continued, and we we had a great service Sunday morning, and then as we were greeting um members of the congregation at the door, uh Julie sent Jackson, um a little boy in the church, up to me and asked him to say the scripture verse from Children's Church from that from Sunday to me, and it was the verse that I had shared. So children's church was covering the exact story and the specific verse that I shared at the transition of service there. So I just thought that was really neat. It's always really cool when when God pulls into alignment, you know, all different areas of the church, and he's clearly communicating one message, you know, from the pulpit in the sanctuary all the way through to the children's ministry in the back. So I thought that that was that was neat.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

It was neat, and it was neat to listen to Jackson do his verse. And the art the artwork the k the children did was really good that day, too.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yes, it wasn't edible this time though, you know. Normally the artwork on Easter they made some tombs that were quite tasty. Tasty tombs, tasty tombs, yep. So uh, but so that's my Godwink this weekend. You will be up next time for the Godwink. So you can go ahead and have one in your back pocket if you would like. Um, before we embark on unpacking the scriptures that we are going to be dealing with today, I have a little game for us to play here at the beginning. And it's not, we're not doing bench start cut today. I'm sure we'll return to that at some point. But I have a little bit of a thought experiment that I want us to do. And when we recorded our introduction for this podcast, we did our Mount Rushmore of biblical books. Do you remember that? We drafted. I remember that. Like we drafted biblical books, and so we each picked four, I believe, that were our favorite or the most significant to us personally books of the Bible. So, what I want us to do today is a very similar thing. I want us to do a biblical Mount Rushmore of biblical characters, but I don't want it to be favorite biblical characters. I want it to be the four biblical characters that we most strongly identify with, that we see ourselves reflected in their character and their personality. These are the characters that as we read scripture, we essentially hold them up as a mirror to ourselves and we can see ourselves in them. Um so are you do you think you can do that? I think I can. I think you should go first. Okay, well here's here's what I was thinking. Well, I'll I'll offer I'll offer you the options here. Do you want to do it as a draft? Like I'll do one and then you do one and then I'll do one and then you do one through the four, or do you want me to do four and then you do four?

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Oh, it doesn't make any difference to me.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Okay, do you think we can do the back and forth?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yeah, we'll do the back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Okay, because I have some contingencies jotted down because I don't want us to do the same ones because there's so many. I mean, there's countless characters throughout the biblical text. So, um, but I'll go first and I will take the obvious one, um, which is the character that we're gonna be discussing today, which is Jacob. Uh-huh. Uh, I I do very strongly identify with Jacob for a few different reasons. First of all, um, Jacob is a younger sibling who, in his older siblings' estimation, you know, supplants him. You know, his name literally means supplant her or heel grasper. And I think that any younger sibling can identify with Jacob to a degree, right? That there's always some level of dysfunction in sibling dynamics, and you know, different different siblings think that the other sibling is the parent's favorite. Um that that colors relationships. So I think, you know, in that in that way I can relate to Jacob, but more so and more importantly, Jacob is just so messy. He's so wonderfully woefully human. Um he he falls short, he messes up, and a lot of the time too, Jacob feels as if uh earlier in his life and for a a considerable amount of his life, Jacob doesn't know that he feels like God belongs to him.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

God to him is a being that is in connection to his father and to his grandfather. And I think that people who are raised in the Christian faith can identify with Jacob in that way, in the sense that there's a period of your life where, you know, God is the God of Abraham or Isaac, or in my case, God was the God of Nisi or Mama, you know. And then you have to have this direct encounter with God where you you struggle with him, you contend with him, you wrestle with him, and we we'll talk about those those things at great length in our our next forthcoming episode. But you you have to contend for yourself with God, and then from that point on, he becomes your your personal and your intimate God. And so that has been my experience that I knew of God because of his connection to those who were connected to me, but then I had to have the direct encounter of wrestling with him for him to become my own personal God. And so for that reason, and for the messiness and how just, like I said, wonderfully, woefully human he is, I identify with Jacob.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Okay. I'm gonna go with Jacob's grandmother. Okay. I'm gonna go with Sarah today.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

I had her on my list too, but you you got her. It's okay. I did.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Okay, but you can tell. No, you go ahead. But I mean, you when I'm done, you can tell why she's on your list, but I'm gonna go with her because um I identify with her and the fact that she had to leave what was familiar and what she knew. But at that time she was following Abraham and Abraham's God. Okay, and there was a definite moment in Sarah's life to where it became real that he was just not the God of Abraham, but he was the God of Sarah. And it was after she was named Sarah. Uh, you know, I love the history of her name. I love um, I see myself in her because I've had barren seasons in my life. I've had times where I've I've gone through things where I didn't feel productive and was wondering, was God going to visit again? Was God going to show up? And then who shows up um powerfully for her at Garar or Jurar, the halting place. And so, um, and I identify with her being a little jealous.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah. I think most women can, you know, most humans.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

But most humans, if if we're honest, you know, we'll say, hey, that that would have struck me wrong. And then I identify with her too in um in the banishment of Hagar, you know. Um I would hope that I would I would be different. And I hope that crucified Nisi would respond differently. But but I I identify with all those things. So we we have to be able to identify with uh the negative aspects of the biblical characters, patriarchs, matriarchs, all that kind of stuff, because because we have to understand they're human. And so I just I just see it's a lot of things in Sarah's life that I that I personally identify with.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Yeah, I I agree. And the only things that I had that I would add on to that is um first and foremost, I had like her incredulity, her her laughing because it just seemed so beyond her wildest imagination for her to be able to conceive. I think that's such a human response. Yeah. And I also identify with her in the sense that Sarah often felt skipped over in the sense what I and I mean that in the sense of it seems to Abraham and presumably to Sarah as well, that the promise is to Abraham, right? Even though scripture is very explicit that the promise has to come through Sarah. That's right. But so often when people want to preach or teach the narrative, you know, the emphasis is all Abraham. It's all Abraham. Even though Sarah was the an integral instrumental part of it as well, and I think that that's something I can identify with. I think every human can identify with, is we often feel skipped over, but the person that never skipped her over was God.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

That God always had her as a central core element to what he was trying to do. And so I think Sarah, I think Sarah is a very immediately identifiable character for most women, if we're being honest. And if we really investigate her character, most women see themselves in Sarah. Right. And I I I'm glad you brought out like her capacity for cruelty. You know, we all want to believe we would act with compassion, but in our humanity, a lot of us would be cruel to someone in a situation like hers and Hagar's.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

So and we definitely would feel the feelings whether whether we express them or not. And so Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Uh my next one, I'll continue with the vein of a female biblical character is my next one is Mary. Okay. And I know that that seems probably like a very lofty character to say, like, oh, I identify with Mary, but let me explain. There are positives by which I identify with Mary, and those are of course um her her deep love and reverence for the scripture. You know, I I always, always pull out that when I when I'm teaching or preaching about Mary, that when she opens her mouth when she enters the house of Elizabeth, and she Elizabeth, you know, tells her, Elizabeth, who am I that the mother of my Lord would come visit me and talk, talks about the baby leaping in her womb? Mary opens her mouth and what pours out is scripture. Right. Right? She quotes scripture from every portion of the Hebrew scriptures. You know, she quotes from the prophets, she quotes from the writings, she quotes from the Torah within the song of praise that she offers there. And I always say, I think that's what qualified Mary to carry Jesus because she carried the logos word, the incarnate word, because she already willingly carried the inscripturated word. Right. And it's so moving because at that point in time, you know, the scriptures weren't disseminated. They they were housed in the synagogues. And as a young woman, Mary had no access. Like within her household, she didn't have copies of the scriptures for her to pour over. So it lets you know that during her consecrated time of worship, her attention was so fixated on the word of God that she she hid it in her heart. You know, she, in the limited availability that it that she had, access to it, she took the time and consecrated herself and hid the word of God in her heart. And because of that, the word of God was able to come forth from her womb. And so I hope that I bear the word of God the way that Mary does, that I carry it with me in my heart and in my very essence as a human being, that everything I do, that when I open my mouth, that the word of God pours out the way that it did with Mary. But also, you know, Mary falls short at times. And Mary, I think we can attest from what's reported in scripture that Mary's somewhat impatient. We see that at in the wedding at Cana, you know, that she's like, What can't can't you just do this now? Um, and I think that I am an impatient person. And Mary, for all of you know, her great qualities, she is someone who doesn't seem to understand sometimes why things can't be done according to her perspective. You know, why can't you work this miracle now at the wedding? Let's go ahead and do this now. And then later, when she comes and offers some criticism to the effect of, can't you stop being so public with your ministry? I'm worried about your health. You know, I'm I'm worried that people are conspiring against you. And I think that, you know, that that protective instinct is is natural and maternal, but it also shows me that, you know, Mar Mary had her own ideas of how things should be done. And she wasn't afraid to voice them. Right. Uh, and they weren't always correct. But I think that that's it again, that's human that we we become attached to our way of thinking. And so we try to assert our way of thinking, and so we're we're all guilty of that. And then, you know, also ultimately Mary is a leader in the church, and Mary is someone who shares the words of her testimony in a way that gives us the gospel of Luke. Right. And so I hope that my life shares the testimony of who Jesus Christ is. So for those reasons, I identify very strongly with Mary. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

I am going to say I identify with Jacobed. Okay. Okay. All right. And the reason I say that is Jacob tried to hide Moses as long as she could. Okay. And then when the child grew and could not be hidden in the cry, as that cry grew louder, um, sh he couldn't be hidden anymore. Sometimes we try to tuck things away and hide things until they have to they have to be dealt with. Uh the problems, issues, or whatever, they begin to scream so loudly that we have to we have to deal with them. So that's one reason that I identify with her. I identify with her because when she realized that she had done all she could do, then she released uh Moses uh into the water. She she released him into the water. And so many times being a mom and now being a grandmother, I understand how many times I feel like I'm standing at the Sea of Reeds releasing my children, you know, my grandchildren. People, even uh church people sometimes standing at the Sea of Reeds and releasing them into a dangerous water, dangerous waters, but then um getting the full revelation that God in his sovereignty can bring what you've released right back around in a greater way. Because she she got to raise them. She didn't have to hide them, you know, and she she literally became the nursemaid who was his mother. And so I learned from her life that the things that you re you really relinquish and release to him, even if it's something you're trying to hide, when you release it to him, then he can bring it back and bring it in a greater fashion and greater way than you ever imagined.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

I like that. Really? Yeah. I I love Yaakovet. I think that she's so interesting. And she's one of those that gets skipped over.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

She does. And I I and I I love I love her story.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yeah. We'll we'll get to talk about her at great length at a later episode, I'm sure. Um, my next one, I I figure this one might be on your list too, so I'm sorry, but I have John. Okay. Um and the reason I'm I'm gonna be a little self-deprecating here in how I identify with John, but surprise, surprise, I am a notorious teacher's pet. And I think that that energy aligns me with John, the beloved, I would say. Um, but but I am like, you know, I I like to enjoy the closest possible relationship with important authority figures in my life. I'm a little bit like Amy Santiago in Brooklyn 9-9, you know, the way she is with Captain Holt. That's how I am with authority figures that I respect and revere and look up to. And so I think that John clearly, you know, he's the ultimate teacher's pet. You know, he makes sure to refer to himself as the one whom Jesus loved and the one who sat closest to Jesus and enjoyed the greatest level of intimacy with Jesus. Um, and so for that reason, I identify with him. And then I hope that I identify with him in the sense that I will I'm totally sold out for Jesus Christ to the point where I would follow him all the way to the cross, no matter what, you know, personal danger that might put me in, that I would follow Jesus wherever he would have me to go. Um, and so yeah, and I also, you know, I think that John he's he's youthful um in in the way that he describes himself. You know, I I would be the one that would put in there that I was faster than Peter. Uh-huh. You know. But I think that just I I hope that I have the the intimacy and the the devotion to Jesus Christ that John is described as having had. So yeah, but primarily for the teacher's pet quality, I think that I identify with John the Beloved.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Okay. Next, I'm going with Deborah.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

I knew you were gonna get her. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

What did you think? You're doing a lot of women, and I'm I like it.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Okay. But I'm going with Deborah because of your name. Well, little known fact, my first name is Deborah Deborah. It's spelled the exact same way. Uh as when I was growing up, it wasn't it wasn't a name I was proud of, but coming to uh learn about Deborah in the Bible, uh I realize it's the name I should not have shied away from. But um the fact that I I I hope that I have a measure of intelligence. Okay. But the fact the fact that she actually rendered, you know, she actually rendered legal decisions, you know, and she was can she was considered one who was wise and one that could be trusted and one that could bring balance. And I hope that in my life that's that's the kind of kind of person that that I am. And I love it that um she said, um, you know, okay, I'll go to war with you. You know, I'm going to do this. You won't go by yourself. I'll I'll go with you. And um, but the victory will come at the hands of a woman. You you won't get the victory, you won't get the credit for this. And so she was willing to go to battle, and she wasn't even talking about herself when she was talking about the victory. But but you know, most people say, well, I'm I'm only going to release this if it's got to do with me. But she was like, Um, the victory will become will come at the hands of a woman. And I just I don't know, I have a deep reverence and respect for Deborah.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Oh, I I love Deborah. I didn't take her because I had a feeling that you would because of the the names, the the fact that you share your name with her. Uh, but Deborah is absolutely one of my favorite biblical figures, and I identify you very strongly with Deborah, you know, in the sense of her being a woman who was comfortable and confident stepping into a traditionally masculine role. You know, judges were men, military leaders were men, and yet she was able to step into that function and do it with excellence. And so I see that in you. And then, you know, Deborah is referred to specifically. Deborah's a psalmist. Yes. You know, she's someone who devotes poetry and songs of praise to the Lord. I see that in you. And then Deborah is specifically described as a mother in Israel. And I think that your maternal quality within your ministry and your life is reflected in Deborah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Wow. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you, boo.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Um, so my my last one of my Mount Rushmore, and then I have a couple others that I jotted down in case you stole any from me, so I'll share them very briefly after you give your last one. But my last one of my Mount Rushmore is Timothy. Okay. Yeah, I I identify with Timothy in in a few different ways. Uh one being that when I think of Timothy, the first thing I think of is the fact that Timothy is specifically described as having very strong spiritual maternal influences in his life. That Timothy needs to stir up the gifts through the laying on of hands, but the gifts that were first observed in his mother and his grandmother by Paul. And so, you know, Eunice and Lois and their influence on Timothy as strong spiritual mothers, not just physical mother and grandmother. And I've been so blessed to have such strong maternal spiritual influences in my life, you know, my great-grandmother, Mama Golden, Mama, you. And so in that way, I automatically identify with Timothy. I also identify with Timothy in the sense that, you know, he he's he's fairly young in ministry in comparison to Paul and other leaders. You know, he's looked at as the as the son of Paul. Um, so he's young and he's very concerned with pastoral ministry and the role of the pastor and the role of church leaders. And so I I share that quality with Timothy. And then I was I had already decided this, but you actually spoke about Timothy last night, and you specifically were talking about the way that Timothy operated in in reference to Paul and Timothy being raised up as a as a son of Paul, you know, a spiritual son, but specifically as someone who could represent Paul. When he was there, it was as if Paul was there, even if Paul bodily could not be present. And I see that in our relationship. Hopefully, I hope that that's how I'm viewed, that I can be an extension of you and of your pastoral ministry. And so in that way, I identify with Timothy.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yeah, I kind of thought about you when I was doing that scripture last night. I see you, Kyla. I see you. All right. Wow. I'm kind of tossed between two right now, but we talked about this one on um our, I guess our last podcast. I'm going with Thomas.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Okay, all right. I thought about him too.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, I'm going with Thomas because um had I not been there when Jesus manifested um to the others, and I just was hearing it secondhand, I I think I would have been, I gotta see it for myself. My eyes have to behold this, I have to experience this. And I love it that he's he he even says, I've got to not just see him, I've got to touch him. I've got I've got to touch him. And so I really think, you know, if I'm getting the story that the one I think is gone, is uh is alive, I'm gonna say I've got to see him. I've got to touch him. And I would want to experience not the wounds. I mean um, and so just we have we we talked about, we have such a tendency to talk about how he doubted. I don't think very many people would have had any different response than Thomas. And so, and then the fact that once he saw and once he touched, he it was like all the blinders were gone, and he was my Lord and my God, you know. And um, and I'm thinking about times in my life where I have seen Jesus, and you're saying, Well, you didn't seem like that, but and I have touched him and I've been touched by him. The only response I can have is to fall and say, My Lord and my God. And Jesus has been so deliberate in my life, just as he was to Thomas.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Yeah, that's a great one. And I I had thought about Thomas, but there's one that I really thought you were gonna say that you didn't say, and that's why I had him on my short list, and that's Peter. Yeah, it was between Peter and Thomas. I I think here's the thing though, I think it's interesting that neither of us said Peter because Peter kind of Peter is the every man. I think every human being sees themselves in Peter. I do too. And so we we could have very easily said him, but I feel like we both were looking for more like deeply personal identifiable qualities that we share. Whereas Peter is just generally like he he is the human. Yes, he is. He is he is humanity on full display. But I definitely do identify with Peter. I do too. With his temper and his spontaneity and his tendency to kind of fly off the handle. You know, I I see myself as Peter. And you know, Peter enjoyed a great intimacy with Jesus, but he was you see more of humanity displayed in him even in the midst of his intimacy than maybe with John.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Right. And I see myself, um, you know, sometimes we talk about Peter and how he seemed like as a coward before his encounter with the Holy Spirit. Um and because he went from being timid to being able to stand up and preach and having that kind in my life, my call and all, and knowing how in myself how insecure I felt, but when empowered by the Holy Spirit, then I can walk in what you were talking about while ago, and that's the only reason I can. And that's when Peter can walk.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

And so another way in which I identify with Peter is he was very opinionated and he was very strong in his convictions to the point that he would argue and have you know theological debates, and I I see myself in Peter in that way. I think I think Paul and I would have gotten into it in some ways. I think I would have been right there with Peter. So uh in that way I I identify with Peter. I think that as we're as we're doing this, obviously, you know, you you can you can identify with any character in scripture. But I was very struck as I was coming up with the ones that I was going to select for this little thought exercise. You know, I I could have selected any of the patriarchs and matriarchs. You know, we we talked about Jacob, we talked about Sarah, but another one on my short list was Leah. I had Rachel, um, you know, and Abraham, Isaac, and even sometimes Esau. Yeah. So I I think that as I said, you know, any character in scripture you can identify with, but there's something really human about the patriarchs and matriarchs, which is so interesting because they tend to be the characters that are put on pedestals. Also, as a kid, you feel as if they're, you know, like the the paragon of Christianity, which is so ironic because they weren't even Christians, you know. But the I they are the ideal that you should aspire to. And then as you get older and you start really investigating the text, you're like, whoa, these are messy people. These are humans, they make a lot of wrong decisions, they do wrong by their fellow man a lot. And so I think that it's just so important that people understand that the patriarchs and the matriarchs, they're not perfect. Right. And they are examples for us to aspire to in some ways, but in other ways, they're examples for us to hold up and be like, I don't want to be anything like this. You know, they they're they're cautionary tales just as much as they're aspirational figures. Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Because I almost used Rebecca.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that's you can use, like I said, any of the Patriarchs matrix. And we're going to get into Rebecca's messiness today. Is that why you don't use her? Yeah. Um, so so today we're going to be dealing specifically with Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, and Esau. Primarily, Jacob is the character that we're we're going to be discussing here, but the others are part of the narratives that we will be discussing as well. And so we're going to see how they are cautionary tales and not just merely aspirational figures. So if you would like to read along with us today, we will be in Genesis chapter 25. We'll read from verse 19 through to the conclusion of that chapter. And then we're going to read two additional chapters as well. We'll be reading chapter 27 and 28. So I think what we're going to do here is we'll read the portion of chapter 25 that we're going to read. We'll discuss that. And then we'll read, you know, chapter 27, discuss that, chapter 28, and discuss that as well. So we are embarking on a journey here with Jacob. And so this will be a two-episode journey. So today we're following Jacob from birth to Bethel. And then next week's episode, we will be talking about Jacob beyond Bethel, but specifically uh what happens at the Jabbok and him wrestling with God there. So as I said, Genesis chapter 25, beginning at verse 19. This is actually a new section, it's a new passage within the Torah. So this is Toldot, Toldot, which literally means descendants. That's the title of this section of the Torah that I'll be reading. Um, and it begins this way. It says, This is the story of Isaac, son of Abraham. Abraham begot Isaac. Isaac was 40 years old when he took to wife Rebekah, daughter of Bethuel, the Aramean of Paden Aram, sister of Laban, the Aramean. Isaac pleaded with God on behalf of his wife, because she was infertile, and God responded to his plea, and his wife Rebekah conceived. But the children struggled in her womb, and she said, If so, why do I exist? She went to inquire of God. And God answered her, Two nations are in your womb, two separate peoples shall issue forth from your body. One people shall be mightier than the other, and the older shall serve the younger. When her time to give birth was at hand, there were twins in her womb. The first emerged red, like a hairy mantle all over, so they named him Esau. Then his brother emerged, holding on to the hill of Esau, so they named him Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when they were born. When the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter, a man of the outdoors. But Jacob became a mild man who stayed in the camp. Isaac favored Esau because he had a taste for game. But Rebecca favored Jacob. Once when Jacob was cooking a stew, Esau came in from the open, famished. And Esau said to Jacob, Give me some of that red stuff to gulp down, for I am famished, which is why he was named Edom. Jacob said, First, sell me your birthright. And Esau said, I am at the point of death, so of what use is my birthright to me? But Jacob said, Swear to me first. So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob. Jacob then gave Esau bread and lentil stew. He ate and drank, and he rose and went away. Thus did Esau spurn the birthright. All right, so the narrative we have here, I mean, it's one you get taught in Sunday school fairly early, I feel like. We all heard about Esau selling his birthright for some stew very early. I have a very vivid memory of Miss Janice teaching this in children's church when I was probably like five or six years old. This is one of those first biblical stories that I can remember being taught. And yet I feel like I was taught it, no offense to Miss Jane, that she did a phenomenal job, but at such a surface level. Like we don't we don't in Sunday school often really delve in to this. And I feel like it's because of the fact that we have Jacob on a pedestal.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

So in our brain, Jacob does everything right. And in this narrative and in the forthcoming narrative that we're going to discuss momentarily, Jacob sometimes is not operating the way that maybe he should. We see him being dishonest. We see him blackmailing Esau, essentially. Um so there's a lot to discuss here, but I think first and foremost, we we need to invite our listeners to accept the fact that everyone we're dealing with here is human, that everyone is flawed, that everyone has a capacity for cruelty. And so we need to accept those things before we begin dissecting this because there's only so much we can glean from this if we view Jacob as always being right.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

That's you're right.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

So what jumps out at you here in this narrative?

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Oh, um, let's see. You want to go all the way back to 18? Yeah, to the beginning. Yeah. Um let's see. One verse, I'm going to verse 21. Okay. Okay. Um, one thing that has always stood out to me was that Isaac pleaded with God on behalf of his wife. Um, because uh yeah, I'd done a series on barren women in scripture, and one of the keys here is that Isaac himself pleaded with God. And of course he wanted he wanted offspring, you know, but it says that he pleaded with God on behalf of his wife. Yeah. Okay. Uh because she was infertile, and the it then goes on to say that God responded to his plea. God answered his prayer, and then his wife, Rebecca, conceived.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah. There's there's so much in that single verse that jumps out. And I think first and foremost, that God responds to human pleas. Yes. That God is moved, the heart of God is moved, and the hand of God is moved to action by the pleas of humans. You know, there are those that will try to contend that God isn't moved by prayer. Uh-huh. You know, that that prayer, that petitionary prayer is not something that that actually directly spurs God to act, right? That God in his sovereignty has already made his decision. But scripture shows us pretty plainly that God is moved by human petition, by human prayer. And that that's what it very clearly says that here that God responded to his plea. Had the plea not been made, there would have been no response from God. You're right. And so that that reveals something about the nature of God to us, that he is moved on our behalf and by our prayers. That's right. Uh, I also think what this is not explicitly within this verse, but it's something that was shared in the biblical text earlier. It is so important that we grasp that Isaac and Rebecca are the first biblical couple that the terminology of being in love is used in reference to. So, you know, Abraham and Sarah, you know, they they they're married, they probably do love each other, but the text doesn't explicitly tell us that they are in love. Right. Isaac and Rebecca are the first biblical couple that are explicitly in love. And I think, you know, it says that that when when Rebecca is brought back by Damasus Scalezer and brought to Isaac, and she, you know, comes up off of her mount and approaches him in Bir Lahiroei, it says specifically that Isaac took her into the tent and they loved each other, and thus Isaac found comfort after his mother's death, right? That Rebecca provided comfort and love to Isaac. And I the reason that I make that point here is because the action we see Isaac undertaking is intercession, right? He intercedes on Rebecca's behalf. And I think intercession is a natural extension of love. That if if you love someone, you intercede on their behalf, you plead for them, you pray for them. And you know, we we're called to love all manner of people. So therefore, we're called to intercede for all manner of people. If you love someone, you know, scripture compels us to love, then we have to be willing to plead on behalf of that. Person.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

That's right. And um I think it's over in Ephesians, after the armor of God, it's it's praying all for all people.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

And that means all people, not just the people you agree with, not just people that are easy to deal with. Yeah, you if you love someone, you're willing to plead for them, and we have to love everyone. So we have to intercede for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

So yeah, but I I I love that that he's it is actual intercession. And I I agree wholeheartedly that intersection intercession is an act of love.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Then just reading the very next uh phrase after Isaac pleaded with God on behalf of his wife because she was infertile and God responded to his plea and his wife Rebecca conceived, but the children struggled in her way. Okay. I'm gonna stop right there because I find it so interesting that we see Jacob's life began with a struggle. And really two struggles here. We see Isaac contending with God. Isaac had to struggle with God in order for Jacob to come into existence. And then Jacob had to struggle with man in the midst of Rebekah's womb. He wrestled with Esau. And as we'll see in our next episode, you know, when Jacob is renamed Israel, Israel means I have struggled with God and with man and have prevailed. And we see the seed of that being planted here at Jacob's very conception that from the moment he was conceived, God was already thematically bringing to fruition the story of his renaming, right? Something that wasn't gonna happen for you know scores of years. God is already pointing to it here by having Isaac contend with God and Jacob contend with man. Contention is being made with the divine and the human, and that's what Jacob's ultimately gonna be renamed. And so we see that God is already anticipating who Jacob is going to become even before Jacob exists and in his first moments of existence.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Right. And then um I love let's see Rebecca's uh if so, why do I exist? Yeah, why do I even exist? You know, she's caring too, and they're fighting and struggling within. And so she, you know, um, she uh definitely wanted children or child, and then in this in the struggle and all that she's going through, she even she's questioning her her existence. So what I love about it is when she's questioning this, she knows exactly who to go to. She it says that she went to inquire of God. That means that this was a purposeful inquiry, it wasn't something like it just flashed through her mind. She went to inquire of God to find out, and God gave her an answer. And the this answer said to me is one of the reasons that she did some of the things that she did. Because she felt like God needed her hand. Yeah, we're we'll talk about that in just a second.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

But I think that the the whole if so, why do I exist, you know, essentially like Rebecca Rebecca's having an existential crisis here. And she's saying, What what is the reason for my existence? If I can't even do this, yes, right, if I can't do this well, this is this is what women exist for, right? We exist to give offspring to our husband. Like in the ancient Near East, like that's that was the purpose of Rebecca's existence. And she's saying, if I can't even do this, why am I here? What why was I created?

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

And I think that all human beings, male and female, we've we've all been at that place before of God, I can't, I can't seem to do anything, nothing's going my way. Why, why am I here? You know, for what purpose was I created? And so I think that in that way, Rebecca is somewhat of an everyman that we all can identify with her in that in that respect. So, yes, then God gives her, you know, the response, the prophecy of the the fact that Jacob is is chosen by God, that the younger is going to be served by the older, right? Right. Um what's what's your next thing that you had for us to discuss?

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Um do you think that sh they had ever even this is just curiosity. Do you think they'd ever seen twins?

SPEAKER_00 48:27

I don't I don't know because this is the first biblical example of of twins. Of course, we see other twins very shortly thereafter, right? We see um Perez and Zara. Uh but this is as far as I'm aware, this is the first scriptural reference to twins. So I wonder how she hadn't.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Could you imagine how she felt when you got two separate Esau out and then suddenly Jacob comes back? She'll issue from your body. Yeah, because she was she was told that. And so if you haven't seen that, what do you uh anyway? That I I just wanted to.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Yeah, I wonder what the midwife was thinking when suddenly there's there's a hand coming out with the first baby grasping onto the heel. So and so so the meanings of their names, Esau, as the scripture tells us, it comes from the root of Edom or Adam, which means red. Uh so because he was red and hairy, and then um Jacob means heel grasper or supplanter, which will will come up shortly um in the next narrative as well. It also some people uh render it trickster, yeah. But it's it's literally supplanter, one who who grasps the heel. Uh, I once had a student in children's church, and no, it's not priceless pulpit time, but the only thing that she could remember ever was that Esau was hairy. I mean, she would be I mean she was four, so let's give her some some credit. She might have been three at the time, actually. But she anytime we were discussing Bible facts, first thing Esau was hairy. She was very, very fixated on the hairy picture in her mind. It did, it was it was descriptive and she she conjured the image. Um so then we see when the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter, a man of the outdoors, but Jacob became a mild man who stayed in the camp. Isaac favored Esau because he had a taste for game, but Rebecca favored Jacob. I think that it's very important that we acknowledge here that this the entirety of the book of Genesis. I once had a professor, Dr. Erica Brown, said it this way to me, and I love the way she said this. She said, Genesis is a really good manual for how to create leaders. It is a horrible manual for how to parent. Yeah. She was like, it's the parenting that is taught and modeled in Genesis is really bad. And we see constantly throughout Genesis the recurrent theme of parental favoritism.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Every parent in Genesis has a favorite. You know, that's not the way that you're supposed to raise children. You're supposed to love them equally and unconditionally. And of course, you have individual relationships with them, but you're not supposed to have, you know, clear favorites the way that the parents in Genesis do. Pointed out. Yeah, it's it's literally here. Isaac's favorite was Esau, Rebecca's favorite was Jacob.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

This is the inspired word of God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

But what I find so interesting here, it's fascinating to me, is the way that the favoritism is described here. Isaac favored Esau because he had a taste for game, but Rebecca favored Jacob. See, Isaac's love for Esau is predicated on what Esau can do. Right. Esau was an outdoorsman, he was a hunter, Isaac liked meat. So he loved Esau for what Esau could provide, what Esau could do for him. But Jacob favored, but but Rebecca favored Jacob full stop. Yeah. There's no reason. There's nothing there. Yeah. She just favored Jacob. And so Isaac favored Esau for what he could do. Rebecca favored Jacob simply for who he is or who he was. And that to me is fascinating because, and we'll see this borne out in the next narrative: what you do can be replicated. What you do can be recreated. But who you are, only you have that.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

And so Esau, what he provided to Isaac, someone else could step in and provide it. But Jacob and the relationship he had with Rebecca, that couldn't be replicated because the only basis for it was that he was Jacob.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Exactly. Yep. That's a wonderful point.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. I made that one in Hebrew class. I remember. So here's where we get Jacob making the stew and Esau coming in from the open famished. What stands out in these verses in this part of the narrative to you?

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Uh give me some of that rich stuff to gulp down. Sounds really appetizing, doesn't it? Yeah. I want it so I can gulp it down. Okay. For I'm famished. And then the thing is, hunger is a real thing. Okay. But hunger is something that unless you've just gone a couple of weeks without food, you can get you can get beyond it. Okay. And so he's he thinks he's starving to death. Yeah, he says that I am at the point of death. And so he thinks he's starving to death here. And so he's willing to give up something that should that should be most precious to him. And so uh that's that's what stands out to me is I really wonder how I don't doubt he was hungry.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

No, and we any human being has been hungry and has been famished, and many of us have probably been to the point where we we felt as if we were gonna die. Doesn't mean that medically that was necessarily true, but I I have in my notes basically what you just said, which is the the lesson I take from this is don't trade the eventual and the ultimate for the fleeting and the immediate.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Because that's that's what happened here. Is Esau wanted something right now. And so he traded something that was going to mean so much eventually for something that he could have immediately.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

And that's human nature. Right. That we want instant gratification. We want it right now. And so Esau had something that he wanted right now, but he traded something that had immensely greater value than Stu for Stu because that's what he wanted right now. And I think that impatience is something that we see modeled in all of the main characters of this narrative and the next two narratives we're going to read. And people trying to do things in their own way and in their own timing. And when they do that, the the ultimate value of something is squandered for the immediate gratification of something now.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Right. Something temporal for something eternal.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

Right. I do think it's important that we explain what the birthright is. Yeah. Because I don't know that that's something that is always taught. Uh I mean, I hope that it is, but it's something that I didn't have a firm grasp of until I went to college, which is that as the oldest, Esau was entitled to a double portion of inheritance. So even though Isaac presumably only has two sons, he might have had more, but these are the two that are named. Um these are the two that are named in scripture. If he had these two sons, his fortune, his household would not have been divided in two. It would have been divided in three. And Esau would have gotten double of what Jacob got. So Jacob as the younger would get one-third, Esau as the older would get two-thirds. So Esau is trading away his double portion of inheritance, his two-thirds of all that Isaac had to his name. And so that's what he's trading to Jacob here.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

So he's he's he's still getting something.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

Yeah, he's gonna get one-third. I think that it's it's also important, which we're about to read the next narrative in a moment, that really emphasizes this, but that we we understand that the birthright and the blessing are two separate things.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

There's so often they're conflated in like children's church lessons and Sunday school, and sometimes even from the pulpit. It's right, it's like Jacob took Esau's birthright and blessing. Well, those are two separate stories, two separate instances, two separate occurrences, and two separate things that Esau was denied.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Yeah, he takes them both, but it's two separate instances.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah. And it's important too that we recognize the birthright is what Esau willingly traded.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Esau didn't give up his blessing.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

It was stolen from him. You're right. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

So I, you know, in in this story, obviously, Esau is not necessarily portrayed as super sympathetic or anything. But I do think that every human has been in his position, and a lot of humans would do the same thing. Oh, I do too. So I think that Esau was someone that that we can very readily identify with. And we need we need to be so careful not to treat Esau as a villain. It always grinds my gears. I know. When people treat Esau as a villain, because I see Esau as such a sympathetic character and eventually as a type of Christ. We'll get to that in our next episode. I mentioned it in a prior one. But Esau is someone that we can and I think should identify with.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Oh, I I definitely identify with him. And then when you look at it in the spiritual context of things, there's no question that we sell out the eternal for the temporal.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

Yeah, all the time. And I think that people pull the scripture in Malachi chapter one out of completely out of context, and they quote it in a horrible translation, which is God loved Jacob and hated Esau. That's not what it says. That drives me crazy when people say that because God is love. How is it within the capacities of God to hate a human that he created and desires relationship with? You know, so it it literally what it's saying there is that he he chose Jacob and rejected Esau, but it's not talking about them as people, it's talking about the covenant with nations and the nation of Israel and the nation of Edom. Right. And so I we gotta get that out of the way right here. That people, God does not hate Esau as a human being, God doesn't hate humans, God loves humans and he desires for all humans to come to repentance and to be reconciled to him. So I think that's something we gotta clarify. Anything else in this passage before we move on to chapter 27?

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Let's see.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Okay, you ready? Yeah. Okay, so now we'll be in Genesis chapter 27. It's kind of a long chapter. We're gonna read it in its entirety and discuss it. You ready?

SPEAKER_01 59:35

Uh give me here yes, I am. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

Okay. When Isaac was old and his eyes were too dim to see, he called his older son Esau and said to him, My son, he answered, Here I am. And he said, I am old now, and I do not know how soon I may die. Take your gear, your quiver and bow, and go out into the open and hunt me some game. Then prepare a dish for me such as I like, and bring it to me, so that I may give you my innermost blessing before I die. Rebecca had been listening as Isaac spoke to his son Esau. When Esau had gone out into the open to hunt game to bring home, Rebecca said to her son Jacob, I overheard your father speaking to your brother Esau, saying, Bring me some game and prepare a dish for me to eat, that I may bless you with God's approval before I die. Now, my son, listen carefully as I instruct you. Go to the flock and fetch me two choice kids, and I will make of them a dish for your father such as he likes. Then take it to your father to eat, in order that he may bless you before he dies. Jacob answered his mother Rebecca, but my brother Esau is a hairy man, and I'm a smooth skinned one. If my father touches me, I shall appear to him as a trickster, and bring upon myself a curse, not a blessing. But his mother said to him, Your curse, my son, be upon me. Just do as I say and go fetch them for me. He got them and brought them to his mother, and his mother prepared a dish such as his father liked. Rebecca then took the best of cl best clothes of her older son Esau, which were there in the house, and had her younger son Jacob put them on, and she covered his hands in the hairless part of his neck with the skins of the kids. Then she put in the hands of her son Jacob the dish and the bread that she had prepared. He went to his father and said, Father, and he said, Yes, which of my sons are you? Jacob said to his father, I am Esau, your firstborn. I have done as you told me. Pray sit up and eat of my game, that you may give me your innermost blessing. Isaac said to his son, How did you succeed so quickly, my son? And he said, Because then the eternal your God granted me good fortune. Isaac said to Jacob, Come closer that I may feel you, my son, whether you are really my son Esau or not. So Jacob drew close to his father Isaac, who felt and wondered, The voice is the voice of Jacob, yet the hands are the hands of Esau. He did not recognize him, because his hands were hairy like those of his brother Esau, and so he blessed him. He asked, Are you really my son Esau? And when he said I am, he said, Serve me, and let me eat of my son's again, that I may give you the innermost my innermost blessing. So he served him and he ate, and he brought him wine and he drank. Then his father Isaac said to him, Come close and kiss me, my son, and he went and kissed him, and he smelled his clothes and he blessed him, saying, Ah, the smell of my son is like the smell of the fields that God has blessed. May God give you of the dew of heaven and the fat of the earth, abundance of new grain and wine. Let people serve you, and nations bow to you. Be master over your brothers, and let your mother's sons bow to you. Cursed be they who curse you, and bless they bless they who bless you. No sooner had Jacob left the presence of his father Isaac, after Isaac had finished blessing Jacob, then his brother Esau came back from his hunt. He too prepared a dish and brought it to his father. And he said to his father, Let my father sit up and eat of his son's game, so that you may give me your innermost blessing. His father Isaac said to him, Who are you? And he said, I am your son Esau, your firstborn. Isaac was seized with very violent trembling. Who was it then he demanded that honey came and brought it to me? Moreover, I ate of it before you came, and I blessed him. Now he must remain blessed. When Esau heard his father's words, he burst into wild and bitter sobbing, and said to his father, bless me too, father. But he said, Your brother came with Guile and took away your blessing. Esau said, Was he then named Jacob that he might supplant me these two times? First he took away my birthright, and now he's taken away my blessing. And he added, Have you not reserved a blessing for me? Isaac answered, saying to Esau, But I have made him master over you. I've given him all his brothers for service and sustained him with grain and wine. What then can I still do for you, my son? And Esau said to his father, Have you but one blessing, father? Bless me too. And Esau wept aloud. And his father, Isaac, answered, saying to him, See, your abode shall enjoy the fat of the earth and the dew of heaven above. Yet by your sword you shall live, and you shall serve your brother. But when you grow restive, you shall break his yoke from your neck. Now Esau harbored a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing that his father had given him, and Esau said to himself, Let but the mourning period of my father come, and I will kill my brother Jacob. When the words of her older son Esau were reported to Rebekah, she sent for her younger son Jacob and said to him, Your brother Esau is consoling him by planning to kill you. Now my son, listen to me. Flee at once to Haran, to my brother Laban. Stay with him a while until your brother's fury subsides, until your brother's anger against you subsides, and he forgets what you have done to him, then I will fetch you from there. Let me not lose you both in one day. Rebecca said to Isaac, I am disgusted with my life because of the Hittite women. If Jacob marries a Hittite woman like these from among the native women, what good will life be to me?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Okay. So that's the entirety of the chapter. There's I know you read a lot. There's there's so much going on here, but the the first thing that jumped out at me as you were reading was just how tinged with emotion this entire chapter is. We see Esau bursting into tears and sobbing and crying out. We see Isaac trembling greatly. The first thing that I had in my notes about this chapter is, you know, as we said, the patriarchs and the matriarchs often they're put on pedestals and it's like these are these are these great, almost nearly perfect people that we should aspire to be like. But everything in this chapter is a cautionary tale. Because like no no one, no one is behaving well in this chapter, except maybe Esau. Esau's maybe the only person that's doing everything right. He's being obedient. He's, you know, acting in service to his father as his father requested. But Isaac, Jacob, and Rebecca, they're all being pretty bad people. They are all attempting to do things in their own timing and in their own way. And none of them are relying on the Lord. Right. None of them, you know, in the previous chapter, we talked about Rebecca going and qu and inquiring of the Lord, taking her question to the Lord. We talked about Isaac pleading with God, making intercession. Here, none of them inquire of the Lord. Exactly. And we see the the outset of this chapter is Isaac thinking, I think I'm gonna die soon. Let me go ahead and do this thing that I have to do prior to death. Did God instruct Isaac to go ahead and give the blessing? No, he didn't. No, Isaac should have trusted God. That's right. That God would let him know when the time had come for him to bless his son. But Isaac takes it into his own hands and tries to do it in his own timing. He says, you know what, my eyes are growing dim. I think I'm gonna go soon. Let me go ahead and take care of this. Right. And that's such a human thing that we want to do things in our own timing. But the reality is, this is something I think that we need we need to address here at the outset of this chapter. It was God's desire for Jacob to be elevated and for Jacob to be blessed. But I fully believe that God could have done that in his own timing and in his own way in a manner that didn't alienate or hurt Esau like this.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:00

That Esau now faced a personal betrayal from his mother, from his brother, and to a lesser degree from his father. And the reality is God could have enacted a blessing over Jacob that did not harm Esau in this way.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

Yeah. They didn't give God the opportunity. No, they said we we have to handle this. I just think Isaac was hungry. You think he just wanted the game? He was like, you know, hunger got Esau in the other chapter. Yeah. And so you know, he loves Esau because he loves the meat. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:35

A cautionary tale of hunger, if you will. So, so yeah, well, uh again, I think that perhaps the only character that's not acting in rebellion to the timing of God is Esau. Right. And I think that if you read this passage in the original Hebrew, there's a very strong indicator that Esau is actually the virtuous and good character here. And that indicator to me is the first thing that he says. Because what happens here is Isaac calls Esau to him. Right. And Esau's response in the Hebrew is Hanani. Here I am. This is the exact terminology with which, you know, most of the great prophets and patriarchs respond to God when God is striking covenant with them or when God is calling them to the purpose for which he created them. You know, this is the response that Samuel gives when the voice of God cries out to him in the night. This is the response that Abraham has to give when God is consecrating him and providing the covenant for him. And here we see this is the response that Esau gives, which is so interesting because Esau so often is excluded from the terminology of the patriarchs. You know, when we hear patriarch, we think Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, right? But here we see Esau responding, Hanani, here I am. And in the Hebrew, that word encompasses total obedience and complete surrender. And so we see here Esau modeling this obedience and the surrender to his father, which again I think indicates that Esau is, you know, he's behaving with the right heart posture here. And so it's it's so sad to me that he's the one that gets spurned and mistreated when he is responding, you know, with with this spiritual submission that indicates that he's trying to do right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

He has a spiritual submission here, and everybody else seems to be operating in the flesh.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

Yeah, and out of the fish. No one else will submit. Nobody else will. No one else is modeling submission. Isaac says I have to do this in my own timing. Rebecca says I have to eavesdrop and completely, you know, strategize and do this my own way. And then you have Jacob who is is submitting to his mother, not to God. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

And I mean he tries to question, but she says, just do as I say.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

And what a cautionary tale is that, is Rebecca for you know the fact that you as a parent or as a leader or you know, as a companion or a friend, you know, you have the capacity to mislead others. Yes, yes. But when you try to take things into your own hands and do things in your own way and in your own timing, you're not only harming yourself, you're also harming those around you.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:22

And so it brings harm to Jacob in the sense that he has to run away from home, but it also harms Esau in such a deeply personal way. So, so what jumps out at you here? And I know it's a long chapter and there's much to discuss.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:38

Let's see. Excuse me, I did not mean to clear my voice, but I had to. Um I've I've I've already said this that he was he wants him to prepare my dish. Okay, he wants him to prepare what he wants, okay? And when this is when this is brought, this is done, when you do this for me, when this action is carried out, then I can bless you. Okay. And um, so it's the doing. It's the you got to do this to get to get my blessing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

I have in my notes Isaac is tricked on the basis of his affection for Esau. You know, we said in the prior chapter, Isaac loves Esau for what he can do, but what you can do can be replicated.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

And so Jacob was able to make himself appear hairy, make himself smell like the outdoors, and prepare some meat for Isaac, and because of that, Isaac could be tricked into believing that he's Esau, even though he recognizes that his voice is the voice of Jacob. Yeah, that's it. That's so funny. But we see that because Isaac's affection was hinged upon what Esau could do, that if Jacob could do that, then Jacob could supplant Esau.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:50

Yeah, and uh, what's amazing to me is Rebecca was so calculating.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:56

You know, because Jacob's like, well, I can't do this. I'm not Harry. I'm not she had everything.

unknown 1:13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:02

Do you think she had thought about this even before she used to, you know, she'd been planning for the planning, you know, because she knew that Esau was the firstborn. And so I think she had I think this was a carefully laid plan. She just didn't know when the time was going to come for her to carry out her carefully made plan.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

It's just so interesting to me because presumably, you know, as we said in the pro the previous chapter, it doesn't tell us why Rebecca favors Jacob, simply that she does, you know. But it seems likely that the groundwork for her favoritism was laid by the prophecy that God gave to her, right? That the younger would be exalted above the older. And it's just so richly ironic, but also so incredibly human that she knows that Jacob is supposed to be blessed and receive this inheritance because God has promised that to her. And yet she thinks that she has to carry out the promise, that she has to make it come to pass. Uh-huh. When if she would have just allowed God to be God and to do it in his way in his timing, none of this dysfunction would have occurred.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:07

Right. That's when I was saying that I could see myself in Rebecca. Not necessarily that I've tried to carry out the plan, but I always think in my mind how God should carry out the plan. And then he subverts my expectations. He never carries them out the way I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

But the danger is us getting so attached to our expectation, right? To us thinking, well, it's gotta look this way. It's gotta be carried out in this season. And the reality is, you know, God's ways are not our ways, his thoughts are higher than ours. And when we become really deeply committed to our expectations, then it's dangerous because we we don't have that submission and that obedience towards him, but we're committed to bringing to pass what we think needs to come to pass. And that's that's dangerous for us and for those around us.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:00

You're you're exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

So all right, what what else here jumps out to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

Uh let's see. I wonder how many conversations she has listened in on. Oh yeah. That's that's just me being me, you know. As as as I was reading that, as I read it earlier, I'm just like, how many times has she stood at the door um to to um try to hear what was going on between uh Isaac and Nisal? Okay. But um again, I said the the attention to detail, okay. And um and I've I've already I think I've we've already said this. The fact that Jacob's like, but what about this? What about this? And she's like, I've just do what I say, and it'll it will be covered, okay. I think it's incredible. Okay. Verse 20. Is it alright if I skip down to verse 20 and skip into it?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:04

That was the next verse that I was gonna highlight. Okay. Wait, but before you say that, just because this is in the midst of the dialogue between Jacob and Isaac, does this dialogue conjure in your imagination little Red Riding Hood? Because it always does for me. It that's always what I picture ever since I was a kid. Because, you know, it's the the idea of like come close or like let me feel you, like I because you can't see well. And I I wonder if that imagery in the fairy tale doesn't come from and isn't inspired by the biblical story, because the idea of having someone come close and feeling their hands, you know, and everything because you can't see it well enough. That just always jumps out to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

Yeah, that very well may be. But when uh Isaac begins to question, um, you know, how did you make this happen so quick? How did you how did you go out, kill an animal, and come in so quickly? This right here is an example of um using the Lord's name in vain.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:09

That's exactly what I was gonna say. Continue, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:11

Because the eternal your God granted me good fortune, he takes what he and his mother have done, and he ascribes the name of God to it. And uh in his this deceitful act, um he says he brings God's name into it. And that when I read that, it broke my heart. It really did.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:38

Yeah, because not only is he lying, right, he's lying and invoking the name of God. So he is this is the the scriptural definition of taking the Lord's name in vain, attributing God's name to something that God had nothing to do with. And so it it is, it's heartbreaking, and it's this is a clear indicator to us that Jacob is not the good guy here. You know, so often we said in your children's church lessons in Sunday school and even in you know sermons from the pulpit, you've heard it as if Jacob was always the hero, the good guy. But we see here him doing something that grieves the heart of God.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

Right. It sure does. And you're you're right about in Sunday school. I I wonder how many people who were in the the Sunday school class where they're all champions and we only look examine the good stuff of them later when they went and read the scriptures and began to see these things for themselves, like we're breaking out today. How many of them were like what did I learn that was true?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:44

Right, yeah. No, and I think that that's you know, that's as someone who works with young people and children in a church capacity and in teaching the Bible, my number one rule is always I want to teach them in a manner so that they don't have to unlearn later. Right. Because it is it's destabilizing and debilitating for you to begin to investigate the scriptures for yourself and to recognize and realize what I was taught isn't necessarily true because then it forces you to question, well, was anything true? But I think that what happens here, and this is something obviously we're gonna talk at great length about in our next episode. I think what happens is people don't want to wrestle with the biblical text. They just want to read it and let it wash over them. And so they just take it at surface level face value. Right. And they've been told their whole lives Jacob is the good guy, Jacob is the originator of the nation of Israel. And so you just read it, you let it wash over you, and you don't really sit and wrestle with it. But when you break it down verse by verse and really spend time with it and you contend with it, you recognize, yeah, Jacob is the originator of the nation of Israel, but he is a very flawed human being, as are all characters throughout the biblical text. But what to me, it it almost cheapens scripture for us to only look at them as paragons of goodness, because there's so much more to be mind and gleaned and learned from the scripture if we recognize their flaws, and it reveals so much more to us about the nature of God, that he still loves them and utilizes them and has relationship with these people, even in the midst of their depraved humanity.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

And he continues to work with them, he continues to show up for them and to them, and to show goodness to them when they've shown no goodness to him.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

Exactly. So you're you're um spot on when you say it reveals the nature of God.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:46

So the the next thing that I have in my notes is first of all, I think it's so interesting that in the ancient world there were verbal blessings that were spoken over children. And I wish we would return to that to some degree. I wish that parents would verbalize blessings over their children, you know, would would say aloud things that they're speaking into existence over their children and would bless them with their outspoken words. I think that that's something that has been lost in Christianity to a degree, and that there's a clear benefit to it. Right. That you know, the power of life and death is in the tongue, and you can speak things into existence. And so why would you not want to speak blessing over your children? So I I hope obviously I don't have children yet, but I hope that one day I'm the type of parent that does that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:37

And I I believe, I believe you will be. And I remember you doing a little a message preaching one time about about the blessing, and is there something about taking the breath that is God given, because He He gave us the breath, taking that breath and taking His Word and speaking His Word over your children. That alignment is is powerful. And um, I think it's something that somehow on purpose, you know, it has been purpose to steal the blessing. The blessing is always to oh my goodness, that's what this is kind of about. But anyway, the blessing that we should all be speaking as children of God over our families and over our homes. I mean, it's obvious to a parent the gifts within their children. And you know, I I've I've prayed for them, I've spoken them, but there's been very few times that I've probably put my hand on over you or whatever, and spoke the blessing of what I see or what I saw in Michael Riley and what I see in my grandchildren. But there's there's the power of the blessing.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:53

Yes, I I have I have preached a sermon on the power of the spoken word and the blessing in it. It's Isaac and Rebecca that are the central characters in that sermon. And one thing that I find so fascinating is the exact same blessing is spoken over both of them independently before they are brought together in marriage. And it's by separate characters. Laban speaks a blessing over Rebecca that is the exact same words as a blessing that's been spoken over Isaac. And I think that that's fascinating, that God was blessing them independently in a way that was going to bring them together and into alignment in their marriage. And I think that that's just that's fascinating. But the something that jumps out at me about the blessing here, and this is true of all of our words, and I think it's it's a lesson that we need to take from this passage, is that words can never be retracted or revoked. Once they're spoken aloud, they they can't be pulled back in, drained back in. And that's something that humans need to recognize in terms of positives and blessings, but also in terms of negativity and complaining. That once you speak something, once you give it the credibility of verbalizing it, it can never be taken back. And Isaac. Yeah, you it bears out in this passage. Yeah, Isaac, because Isaac, Isaac feels horribly when Esau comes in. He's terrified and he's seemingly, you know, moved with sympathy and he trembles, tremblings. And in the Hebrew it's repetitive there that he trembles, tremblings. And yet he cannot give Esau the same blessing that he's already given to Jacob because it cannot be retracted, it cannot be revoked. And so he's able to give Esau a blessing, but a lesser blessing. And so I think that we all would would benefit and that the the world would be a better place if every human would be cognizant of the fact that once you speak something, you you can't take it back.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:55

Right. Um, that reminds me of the old story of the gentleman taking the feathered pillow, cutting it open, letting the feathers blow in the wind, and then saying, Go gather the feathers and put them all back in the pillow, lay it at my door, and it's that's impossible. So it is with your words. Once your words scatter, you can never gather them back.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:18

There's the the the often used object lesson in youth groups of um toothpaste, squeezing all the toothpaste out of the tube, right, and then telling them, All right, now put it back. And you can't. And that's that's how it is with our words. And I also think that it's very interesting that in in the sense of something that that's positive here with this blessing that he's praying and pleading over Jacob, he can't pray and plead the exact same blessing over Esau. That there's a scarcity to blessing, that it can only be given in this specific way once. I think that's really fascinating. It is that once once he's spoken that other people are supposed to serve Jacob, he can't speak the same thing over Esau because it's already been spoken. And so this this notion of a scarcity to blessing is interesting. That, you know, we were just saying that how much better would the world be if people would speak blessings over their children. What if we did that with the understanding that once I've spoken this over my children, nothing else can be spoken over them. Right. No other words will have dominion over them because it has already been spoken that they're going to be blessed and favored and protected. Nothing else can have any authority over them. Right. So that's just that's very fascinating to me. Um, the last thing that I have in my notes pertaining to this chapter is just how much my heart goes out to Esau.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:47

How much sympathy should be given to Esau here. Because look, let's look at this from his perspective, right? He wakes up, he's called in by his father, and his father tells him to go kill some game and bring it to him so that he can he can receive his blessing. And Esau knows that he's already traded away his birthright, right? He's already given away one thing that is his by birthright, right? You know? And so he goes out into the field and he begins to hunt, and he is none the wiser to anything that's happening back at the camp. He doesn't know what's happening. And then he comes back, he goes in, he gives the game to his father, and his father is immediately like, Oh no, who are you? He's like, What are you talking about? I'm Esau. You told me to go get this meat for you. And his father tells him that he's he's been duped, he's been supplanted, he's been tricked by his brother. And Esau just burst into tears because this this was the last thing that he felt like was his. You know, Jacob had already taken the inheritance, but he thought at least he still had the blessing.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:56

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:57

And so he says, you know, I've I've been doubly. Duped. I've been doubly supplanted. Did you name him Jacob because you knew he was going to trick me? And then think about as Esau becomes more aware, think about what a betrayal it is that his own mother took from him something that was due to him. Right. And he's probably his entire life he's felt like his mother favored Jacob because scripture tells us that she did. So your entire life, you felt like your mom preferred your brother to you. But you were you were due something from your dad. Your dad favored you while your mom favored him. So surely this thing that's coming from your dad, you're actually gonna get, right? And then your mom found a way to deprive you of it. Your mom, someone who's supposed to nurture you and care for you and you know, be so loving and compassionate towards you, she helps cheat you right out of something that belongs to you. What would that feel like? Who does Esau feel like he can trust at this point?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:06

No one.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:07

Exactly. He feels like he feels completely isolated within his family because everyone has played a part in ensuring that he doesn't get what is his by birth order and birthright.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:19

Right. And just think about how damaging that had to be to his to his soul, to his mind, will, and emotions for his mom. The rejection of his mom.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:30

Mm-hmm. So I just what always gets me is when he's bitterly sobbing and he says, Bless me too, Father. Just give me a blessing. Yeah, give me something. Please give me give me something. Let there be something left over for me. And so I I mean, I can completely sympathize and empathize with Esau when it says that he harbors a grudge against Jacob. I mean, I would too. Who among us has not at some point been like, I'm gonna kill my sibling? I mean, I think that we all, if we're being honest, our humanity, we've all been at that place at some point where we've claimed that we are going to kill our sibling. And what's so interesting to me is that Esau's threat is taken so literally and seriously that, you know, Jacob has to be sent away. And I think it's very interesting that Rebecca is the one that concocts the plan. You know, she's the strategist all along. But to some degree, I feel like she has to be the one to concoct the plan because it's her fault. That's right. She's the reason that Jacob's life is in jeopardy here. But I do question how seriously Jacob's life actually was ever in jeopardy. Because Esau's responding out of emotion. And as I said, we've all been that person that's been like, oh, I could kill this person.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:46

Right. But do we think that Esau ever was actually going to perpetrate a murder? I really don't. I know that he he's planning it and plotting it. He felt like he could do it. But it says, you know, that he's going to wait until the mourning period for Isaac has elapsed. So he's going to wait until Isaac dies and then until after he's been properly mourned. And by that point, I think that the emotions will have worked their way through his system. I don't think that he ever actually was going to kill Jacob. He felt like he could and he planned to, but I don't know that that plan was ever actually going to be set into action.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:24

Right. I want to ask a question here. Yeah. How old was Isaac at this time? Do we know?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:32

He doesn't tell us exactly. It tells us how old he is when they're born. But it doesn't. But we do know that the story of Isaac's death doesn't come until later in Scripture, and we know that Jacob is away from home for 21 years, right? Is correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. So, and isn't Isaac's death when Jacob begins to return? Correct me if I'm wrong there.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:04

I'm pretty sure that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:05

So we know that Isaac lives for many, many years beyond this narrative. So again, it's Isaac trying to do things in his own timing. He's like, surely I'm about to die. But scripture bears out that he doesn't die for quite a period of time after this. And so, yeah, Jacob, Jacob's on the run for all of these many, many years. When, I mean, of course, the the plan of God for his life is enacted by him being on the run, but the run I feel like is somewhat unnecessary. That he could have been at home.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:38

I agree. And so um I was just curious if you if you knew.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:50

That Isaac lives for many, many years beyond this.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:55

So but I again that just reiterates the fact that he's operating in his time, right? Not God's time.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:01

But again, my my heart just breaks for Esau for all that he's being put through here, and that, you know, he he feels as if he has no ally, no friend within his household. So I just I think that you know, it's so rarely that it is presented from the pulpit as if Jacob is the bad guy here. But Jacob is is doing bad. That's right. He's lying, he's using the Lord's name in vain, he's tricking his brother, and he he's listening to not sound counsel by obeying his mom when she's acting sinfully.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:41

This is one thing that gets me is uh when she's sending Jacob away, and she said, Um stay with him a while until your brother's fury subsides, until your brother's anger against you subsides, and he forgets what you have done to him, then I will fetch you from there. Then she goes on to say, Let me not lose you both in one day.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:03

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:04

At this point, she's lost Esau.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:07

Yep. Because of her own actions. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:09

Her actions have caused her to lose.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:11

To lose a son. Yep. And she says, I can't bear to lose both of you.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:15

So it's it is it's heartbreaking for Esau, and I just I feel so badly for him. And then I feel doubly badly for him because throughout the ages he's been presented as if he's the bad guy here.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:28

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:29

When in this chapter, he's the only one who really doesn't do anything wrong, who doesn't behave rashly, who doesn't, you know, behave in a manner that's cruel and callous towards his fellow human being. Exactly. So, is there anything else in this chapter before I read chapter 28?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:47

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:48

No? Okay. All right. So this is what we find beginning at the first verse of chapter 28. It says, So Isaac sent for Jacob and blessed him. So he gets blessed again. He's done so many things wrong, and he's continuing to be blessed. It says, He instructed him, saying, You shall not take a wife from among the Canaanite women. Up, go to Pedonoram, to the house of Bethuel, your mother's father, and take a wife from there among the daughters of Laban, your mother's brother. May El Shaddai bless you, make you fertile and numerous, so that you become an assembly of peoples. May you and your offspring be granted the blessing of Abraham, that you may possess the land where you are sojourning, which God assigned to Abraham. Then Isaac sent Jacob off, and he went to Pedonoram, to Laban, the son of Bethuel, the Araman, the brother of Rebekah, mother of Jacob and Esau. When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob and sent him off to Padon Aram to take a wife from there, charging him as he blessed him, you shall not take a wife from among the Canaanite women. And that Jacob had obeyed his father and mother and gone to Padon Aram, Esau realized that the Canaanite women displeased his father Isaac. So Esau went to Ishmael and took two wife, in addition to the wives that he had, Mahaloth, the daughter of Ishmael, son of Abraham, sister of Naboth. And now we enter into a different Torah passage section. This is Vayetsi, which means to go forth or to go out. It says Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Haran. He came upon a certain place and stopped there for the night, for the sun had set. Taking one of the stones of that place, he placed it under his head and lay down in that place. He had a dream. A stairway was set on the ground, and its top reached into the sky. And angels of God were going up and down on the stairway. And standing beside him was God, who said, I am the eternal, the God of your father Abraham, and the God of Isaac. The ground on which you are lying I will assign to you and to your offspring. Your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth. You shall spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All the families of the earth shall bless themselves by you and your descendants. Remember, I am with you. I will protect you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised to you. Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, Surely God is in this place, and I did not know it. Shaken he said, How awesome is this place! This is none other than the dwelling place or house of God, this is the gateway to heaven. Early in the morning Jacob took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar, and poured oil on the top of it, and he named that site Bethel. But previously the name of the city had been Luz. Jacob then made a vow, saying, If God remains with me, protecting me on this journey that I am making, and giving me bread to eat and clothing to wear, and I return safely to my father's house, the eternal shall be my God. And this stone which I have set up as a pillar shall be God's abode, and of all that you give me, I will set aside a tithe for you. Alright, so a lot going on here. Again, this is the passage that I recited a portion of on Sunday morning and was the memory verse for our children's church. But this is so striking because we see here that God himself stands beside Jacob. God is made manifest to Jacob. And I think it's so interesting because Jacob is not expecting to encounter God. Jacob is taken aback. He's flummoxed, he's flabbergasted, if you will, by the fact that God is made manifest here. And I think that part of why that's so striking to me is that Jacob was likely not expecting to encounter God because Jacob knows that he has just done wrong. He knows that he's lied, he knows that he's cheated, he knows that he has used the name of the Lord in vain. So he does not expect to see God. And yet, when he's at his lowest, most sinful point, it's then that God reveals himself to Jacob. Exactly. So often we as humans think that God will not invade the sinful place of the human. We think that God won't reveal himself in the midst of our messiness or in the midst of us having messed up. But that's the place we need him most. Exactly. And that's the place that he tends to seek us out is when we're at our lowest, when we're at our most sinful. Because as I said, that's when we need him, and that's when he reveals himself.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:56

Yeah. When we're in the deepest pit, when when we're at our wit's end.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:04

So all right, what jumps out at you in this passage? What jumps out at me?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:09

Are we going any of it? Any of it? Okay. Uh first of all. I guess when you can't find anything softer, you'll use a stone for a pillow.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:31

The student that I was talking about earlier, that all she ever remembered was that Esau was hairy, she also always wanted to talk about the rock. That Jacob used a rock as a pillow.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:41

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:42

That stood out to her.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:43

But the, you know, the spiritual significance of that rock, you know, is it's it's so powerful. Um the resting his resting his head on a rock. But when I when I was reading this um oh about three o'clock in the morning, a couple of mornings ago, I couldn't get my pillow situated. And so, you know, I'm gropping because, you know, I have a couple of soft pillows stacked on top of each other and turned on my side, and I'm reading this, and I'm like, you know, if he could sleep sleep on a rock, I surely ought to be able to sleep on these pillows. And so the the just the pillow, the rock pillow stood out, stood out to me because of that the other morning. But um the as you've pointed out that God met him when he was running. God met him when he was trying to go to go into a place of hiding where he was going to hide out, God showed up. And I think like uh the last visitation he expected to have, if he was gonna have a visitor, it certainly was not going to be the eternal God, whom he had just um to his father, used his name in vain and ascribed lies to God. But God still God still shows up, God is God is faithful, and so um, so that that stands out to me. Um that when he woke up, you know, and he said, Surely God is in this place, and I didn't even recognize it. That always convicts me. Because sometimes we've said it on here, when you look for God and everything, you'll see God and everything. And sometimes we get in places where we're not even looking for God, and God is trying to show up to us.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:40

So yeah, it it grieves my spirit to to read of Jacob not recognizing that this was the house of God, that this was the gateway to heaven, because I don't ever want to be so removed from God. And it's it's a removal that Jacob has created, right? Because I think that's something that we fail to grasp as humans is that God pursues us in the midst of our sinfulness. Right. Right? That God is trying to be made manifest, that he's trying to be revealed to Jacob, and Jacob's the one that's refusing to acknowledge the presence of God. Right? The presence of God pursues us no matter where we put ourselves, even in the midst of the pit. Right. Right, even in the midst of being on the run and trying to hide. Jacob is trying to hide. God is not hiding from Jacob. And I feel like as a child raised in church, sometimes it almost feels as if you have it presented to you that God will remove himself from you. That if you go into specific situations or you put yourself, you know, in in certain pits, that God will revoke your access to his presence. Right. That's not how God operates. God goes with you everywhere. There's there's no place, I mean, if you make your bed in hell, he's there. Right. There's nowhere you can go that revoke your access to him. But I feel like Jacob feels that way here. Jacob feels as if his access to God has been turned off because of all that he's done. And so the fact that it literally says, and standing beside him was God. Standing beside him was God. If humans could get that reality in our brains and our hearts and in our spirits, that no matter what we've done, no matter where we've gone, standing beside us is God. That he's that immediately available to us, that he's that intimate with us, that he's that manifests to us, that he is right there beside us. Even in the midst of our mistakes, he's right there beside us. Standing beside us is God always. Right. That that that could transform the church and the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:02

Yeah, I was that's one thing I was thinking was what a transformation would take place if we could get that full revelation. Because so many people who have come to know Christ, had a relationship with Christ, then they mess up. They think that He's He has just tossed them to the side and he won't never meet them again. And because they don't expect him to meet them again, they don't they don't look for him and they don't recognize that he is right there reaching for them. And I know so many um people that I've counseled with and tried to talk with who thinks, man, I did this one thing and God kicked me to the curve. And then that picture of a God that kicks you to the curve, you know, and it's an in it's not accurate, it's nothing like God, but that's how some so many people view him, or it's like uh I want to give you the Gibb slap, you know, God's always something I want to slap you in the back of the head. That's not that's the way people see him, but that's not who he is. And this right here bears it out, and this is old covenant. Mm-hmm. This is old covenant thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:19

I think that you know, you saying people, people's image of God as if is as if he's sitting there like waiting to cast judgment, you know, wait, waiting to hit you, waiting to spurn you. That is another one of those examples of what we talked about last week when we talked about the revelation of Jesus, where so often people take human characteristics and human qualities and try to attribute those to God. Right. Instead of allowing godly qualities to impact how we treat our fellow humans. But because human nature is waiting for people to mess up and waiting to judge people and cast people aside, we we take that and we try to make that God's nature. But God doesn't, God doesn't behave according to human characteristics and qualities. And we have to investigate the truth of scripture in order to get an accurate depiction of his nature and his qualities. Right. And the quality that I see here is that he's a God of love and of compassion. Uh-huh. That Jacob is messed up, and yet God is still revealing himself to him. He's saying, You tried to do this your own way and in your own timing, and yet I'm still gonna reveal myself to you. I'm gonna make myself manifest to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:35

I'm gonna suffer long with you. Yeah, God is long-suffering. And sometimes we think maybe the new God of the New Testament is the same God, you know, and read the Psalms and realize how long-suffering and compassionate and kind he is.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:55

So anyway. Um, do you have anything else in your notes? Because I have I have two final points to make. You go ahead. No, do you have anything? You go ahead. Are you sure? Yeah, absolutely. All right, so my next to last point that I had here is it's verse 19. It says, He named that site Bethel, but previously the name of the city had been Los. Okay. And the reason that I I pulled this specific verse out is Bethel literally in the Hebrew means house of God, right? Bet is house, L is God, so it's the house of God. But previously the name of the city had been Lus. See, Luz in Hebrew literally means to depart, to go wrong, to turn aside, or to become devious or perverse. So what we see here is the place that had previously been defined by sinfulness, by having turned aside, having gone the wrong way, having been perverse and devious, right? And this is who Jacob has been, right? He's been devious and perverse. He has done wrong, he's turned aside. This place becomes renamed and repurposed by an encounter with God. And that's indicative of what happens in our lives because of our relationship with God, right? We have all been defined by a sinful nature. But when we encounter God, the name is no longer the sin. That's right. The name is the house of God. We become the dwelling place for the presence of God, even though we've been perverse and we've done wrong and we've gone wrong and we've turned aside, God repurposes us and renames us after we encounter Him. Exactly. And we'll see that borne out in the story of Jacob in what we'll discuss next week, right? But the fact that God takes a place that is love's and makes it his very dwelling place. Wow. And we we often think that God doesn't want to dwell in the midst of sin. But the only way sin can be transformed and rectified. Is for him to dwell there. Right? We are sinful creatures, and yet he makes his dwelling place within us. And we become transformed because he dwells within us. But if he doesn't come to dwell, there's no transformation. We can't be repurposed. We can't be renamed. So the fact that God invades the place of perversity, the place of wrongness, the place of sin. And that's how it is transformed. You know, that's that's the totality of scripture summarized in one verse. That's right. That God comes to a place characterized by sin and transforms it so that it can be characterized by his presence. So, and then my final point you're sure you don't have anything else. I don't want to skip over it. You're not skipping over anything, you're good. The juxtaposition of the vow that Jacob makes and the vow that God makes here. Because Jacob makes a vow saying, if God remains with me, if God protects me on this journey, if God gives me bread to eat and clothing to wear, if I return safely to my father's house, then the eternal shall be my God. Then the stone that I've set as a pillar shall be God's abode. If, if, if, if, if everything is contingent. Jacob vows to God, if God does this, then Jacob will do this. Then Jacob will recognize this. Then God will be Jacob's God. If God does this, it's contingent upon something. Whereas God's promise to Jacob is contingent upon nothing. God says, I am the eternal, the God of your father Abraham, and the God of Isaac. The ground on which you are lying, I will assign to you and to your offspring. Your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth. You shall spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All the families of the earth shall bless themselves by you and by your descendants. Remember, I am with you. I will protect you wherever you go and will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you. Nothing is contingent on what Jacob does. There's no you have to be good. There's no you have to not sin. There's no you there's no even you have to consecrate yourself to me. God simply makes the promise. There's no if, there's no contingency. And it's after this that Jacob makes his. That's if, if, if, if, if. And still God doesn't negate what he has already promised to Jacob. We as humans can never negate or disqualify God's promise. And we think of God, you you said, you know, we think of God as sitting waiting to judge us, waiting to retract things, waiting to say, oh, you're not worthy of this. But that's not his nature because here, Jacob is going to continue to be messy. Jacob is going to continue to mess up in monumental ways. And yet God delivers a promise to him, and the only thing that that promise hinges upon is the goodness of God. God promises to bring it to fruition, not because of what Jacob is worthy of, but strictly because of his nature as God. We cannot negate or disqualify God's promises. His covenant is only contingent upon his goodness, something that can never be voided.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:32

That's so true.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:33

And nothing is incumbent upon Jacob. Jacob doesn't have to do anything. Jacob is being loved by God the way that he'd been loved by Rebecca. Not because of what he can do, but simply because of who he is. And that's the way that God loves all of us. He doesn't love us for what we can do. He loves loves us strictly for who we are and who we are. We are children that he desires a relationship with. We're children that he pursues even in the midst of our sinfulness. And that just that paints such a loving picture of who God is that that's how he treats us is not based on what we can do. You know, so often Christians want to make our relationship with him hinged upon what we can do for him. But the reality is the relationship is hinged upon what he has already done for us. Exactly. And that he loves us strictly because of who we are, not because of what we can do.

unknown 1:54:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:37

Alright, then you gotta have something else from this chapter. I mean, there's no way that you only had like one thing to say.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:45

Oh, it's what it's one of it's one of my favorite chapters. Okay. And when we get to a summation like you've just brought it to, I mean, I really am wow is wow is my response. Okay. Uh if I I was gonna ask you the meaning of loss, then you you brought it out. I felt like I knew what it was, you know. But um you so aptly have wrapped it up. You know how I say you're the expert at putting the bow on taking the package and putting the bow on it? I think you've I think you've put the the bow on this one. My takeaway is, and we've we've already shared it, I don't ever want to be one who God has entered, God is standing beside me, and I don't even know it.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:37

And and we're not done with Jacob. We're gonna be dealing with Jacob again in our next episode. And my my personal favorite narrative of Jacob's life, we'll be discussing then. Before we close this one out, though, you're up for priceless pulpit. So what do you have for us?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:52

I'm actually gonna reach way back in time for this priceless pulpit. It's back when I was doing children's ministry at the old Union Grove Church of God down in El Dorado, Georgia. Okay. And so we had a young boy in children's church. His name was Jonathan Crumley. And full government name, putting it out there. Jonathan Cromley, yeah. And uh one day we were doing uh sword drills, okay, and putting out uh passages of scripture for them to race and look up. And if you're from you may have to be from South Georgia to ex understand this, I'm gonna give you a little bit of context. Um, when you're in Tifton, Georgia, which is our hometown, uh to the east of us on Highway 82 is a little town called Alapaha. Uh to the west of us, uh southwest of us, kinda, is a is a town called Omega. If you forgotta pronounce it as Omega. It's not Omega. It's not Omega. Omega. It is Omega. Okay? And so we're playing sword trails one day, and Jonathan Crumley found the scripture first. He stood up and he proudly began to read when we called upon him. And he said, These are the words of Jesus. I am the Alapaha and I am the Omega, the first and the last. And so Kylie keeps pulling out the ones from children, and out of the mouths of babes, you come up with some interesting stuff. So I wanted to share that he is the Alapaha and the Omega, and he's the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and he is so wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:35

I I have so many children's church things that go perfectly with the story of Jacob. So I'm very excited that I'll have Priceless Pulpit in our next episode because as I said, my students just had so much that they pulled out of the Jacob narratives that they fixated on. So but I've I've always heard you recite that when I am the Alapaha and the Omega, and it always makes me laugh. So we will be returning to Jacob. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, me too. That's that one I feel like is kind of the core of what we're trying to do with this podcast that it's summarized in our next Jacob narrative. So I hope that you will tune back in next week for our return to the story and the life of Jacob. Until then, uh, I'm Kyla. This has been Good Fruit, Good Root, and we'll see you next week. All right. Shalom, you can't get it.