The Harrowing of Hell

Join Denise and Kyla for a discussion on this oft-omitted event of Holy Week. What does it mean that Jesus entered the holding place of the dead? How central is this to Christian theology? Why has the modern church shied away from teaching it? How does the Harrowing of Hell help us to understand the heart and mission of Jesus Christ? All of this, plus a rousing game of start, bench, cut on this special episode!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Shalom and welcome back to another episode of Good Fruit Good Root. I'm your host, Kyla. And I'm Denise. You never put the word host in front of your name. Why? Because I'm not good at hostessing. Not good at hostessing. But you are a good host. Well, thank you. Here on Good Fruit Good Root, we only have good hosts, as the name implies. Um I just can't move past what uh faux pas we had when we begun to record, when we had just begun to record just a moment ago. Um the audience has no idea what laughter we've already shared, even just beginning to record this. Um, and that that's gonna be a priceless pulpit one day, but not today, when we're a little bit more removed from it. Uh but how are you doing today? I'm doing pretty good. How are you, boo? You just pretty good? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I'm good. It's it's been a good week so far.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

It has been a good week so far. I've had a really, really good week. I've been able to watch good movies, good basketball. We've had really good church services, so I've I've got no real complaints right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, me too. Um this presence of the Lord was so rich Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah, it really, it really, really was. So um on on that, in that vein, uh before we jump into discussing our topic of the week or playing any of the games that we have this week, uh it's your turn for God Wink of the Week. So what do you have for us?

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Well, I'm calling it my week of winks, if you don't mind, and it's because it was actually Holy Week. It is Holy Week. I mean, but my God Wink week of winks was holy week. It was in 2009. And uh I was teaching at Community Christian Academy, and we were bringing a group of students from South Georgia to Washington, DC to see the sites and to do ministry in the uh in the let's see, how would I call it in the inner city, in the inner city of DC. And um because I was bringing students so far away, the parents who had entrusted the students to me wanted a detailed uh itinerary of what we would be doing. And the day we left, nothing worked out. We did leave, it was 4-4 at 4. We left on April 4th at 4 a.m. in the morning, fourth month, uh, fourth day, and we left at four, but our travel plans were um messed up because of flooding. And it's like everything that I had laid out for the week, somehow something happened and the plans got twisted. We just had all kinds of things that surfaced, but at every time that something went wrong, every time, my plan was put to the side, and God's plan was able to shine forth. And I felt like God left post-it notes at every turn on that trip, and it was like, gotcha, God. I mean, he was saying, gotcha to me, sign God, and I call that my week of God wings. I actually, there were so many things that he did that I actually think he was just rapidly blinking because it was like he put his signature on everything that week, down to the morning that we were supposed to minister Palm Sunday at a church. We had a van and we had a private vehicle on the trip with us. Those of us, and you were with me, we piled into the private vehicle, and the van was coming along behind us. And we got to the church that we were ministering at, Brenda Anderson's church. We got there first, and the van got lost. Yes, I remember this very well. And while we were there, we had to go ahead and start the service. And we literally started you, you were asked to open the service. You came on there, you opened that service with your favorite scripture, and then I was asked to share, and I began to share. And what was so incredible was the group that got there late, they came in, and one was a gentleman spoke up in the service and said something. He quoted a verse that I had already quoted, and it was like God said, Look, I separated y'all so I could bring you back together so the people here could see that I am in this thing. And I thought that was like a huge God wink from heaven. And I should have relaxed in that because the whole week turned out to be, like I said, my plans were tossed to the wind, but God was in every detail because his plan worked, not mine. And so I'm I'm so thankful that it was Holy Week and I call it my week of winks, but I really think God was blinking rapidly at me.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Well, I'm glad that you were having God winks that week because meanwhile I was in the back of the van having to listen to different teenagers sing inappropriate songs that got us in trouble on that missions trip. Uh I was scouting out in CIS locations. A little a little bit of a different experience. Yeah. You know this. Uh what was I 10 on that trip? Yes, you were. Ten years old, wow. I remember that trip very, very vividly, though.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

And we literally walked across. Um, let's see. Oh, you actually did that on was it Good Friday?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

I think it was. I think it I think it was. Yep. So anyway. Week of winks. Yeah, but you cheated. How did I cheat? Because your God wink of the week your god wink of the week is supposed to be something from this week.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Oh, I'm so sorry. It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

But it's holy week. I I understand, and I'll allow it this time. Thank you. But you you are a cheater.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

He has given me winks since Sunday and the five.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Well, that's that's the purpose of this segment is to show that he's winking every week. All right, so on the subject of you cheating, how's your how's your March Madness bracket looking?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

It's looking better than I thought it was, but not as good as I need it to look.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yeah, well, you're only one game off from me, and I'm a little bit worried because we have different selections in the final four, so so you might you might end up edging this one out. Um, but in the spirit of of March Madness and in the spirit of having a game, because I was not going to have a game this week because the subject matter we're dealing with is very serious and very sensitive to me, but you were the one that was like, are we not playing a game? So, and you specifically asked that we play start bench cut. So for those unfamiliar, which I feel like it's it's pretty intuitive, start bench cut is a game where you're presented with three options and you essentially rank them from favorite to least favorite in basketball terms. So you start whatever you're ranking first, you bench, so you're seating on the bench instead of playing your second option, and then you're cutting from your team, getting rid of your least favorite option. All right. So start, bench, cut, your first three are Matthew, Luke, and John as Gospels, not as people. The Gospels of Matthew, Luke, and John. Start, bench, cut.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Matthew, Luke, and John. Mark, Mark didn't make the cut. Well, I am going to start John. That was quick. And I am going to I'm going to bench Matthew.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Okay. This feels personal. And I'm cutting Luke. Yeah, this feels personal because you know Luke is my favorite gospel. All right, explain yourself.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Uh John. I love I love John's uh writing patterns. I love uh John's take and how his uh his his gospel's not the synoptic one, and it um is just such a the you can tell it's written by John the beloved, and he has some years under his belt when he wrote it. But John's just has become my favorite, my favorite gospel. Okay. Um Matthew Matthew does an excellent job at um at covering the the life and the span of Jesus' ministry. I have a tendency to lean into Matthew um with the events of Holy Week and the crucifixion. And so that's that's why I'm going with Matthew. Luke, I love the gospel of Luke. I know it doesn't sound like it, but um Lucas has the longest chapters, it's the longest read. So I'm cutting Luke.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Ironic coming from you. Uh I I know I said just a few moments ago that Luke is my favorite gospel, and it is. Like if I'm just going to read one for myself, it's probably going to be the gospel of Luke. It's so detailed and meticulous. Um you can you can feel Luke and Mary to a degree. Their voices just are so are so strong in their presentation of the life and the gospel of Jesus Christ. But for theological purposes, as a teacher and a preacher, I'm gonna start John just because of it, its presentation of the divinity of Christ. Exactly. I will bench Luke and sorry, Matthew, your cut on my team. All right, you ready for your next one? Ready. Alright. These are miracles of Jesus. Okay. Start, bench, cut, the feeding of the 5,000, the walking on water, and the healing of the paralytic of Capernaum.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Whoa, you are so not right.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Notice I I didn't put my favorite miracle in here because that would just be unfair. And I wasn't sure off the top of my head what your favorite miracle was. So do first off, do you have a favorite miracle of Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Do I have a favorite? Nah, I I don't know that I can say that I have a definitive favorite miracle.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Okay, well, of these three, which ones are favorite?

SPEAKER_01 11:12

These three. Wow. I am I'm going with the feeding of the five thousand to start. Interesting, because that's my cut. Okay. But but keep going. And then I'm going with the paralytic as to bench.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

And I'm cutting and walking on water. That's really interesting to me because when I came up with these, that my gut instinct was that I'd probably cut walking on water. And I think that the reason that I thought that initially is because the healing of the paralytic and the feeding of the 5,000, they deal with with groups, with multiple people. Whereas not that the walking on water, I mean the disciples were witness to it, but it's essentially Jesus and Peter, right? But the more that I sat here and thought about it, I decided that as much as there are aspects of the feeding of the 5,000 that I love to teach, I'm going to start the healing of the paralytic. I'm going to bench the walking on water, and I'm going to cut the feeding of the 5,000. And I think the reason for that is you're more likely to hear about the feeding of the 5,000, I feel, in sermons and in lessons. And so I just feel like the other two are are more apt to be mind.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

What's what's funny and interesting is one of my first sermons that I preached uh involved Jesus walking on water.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Really?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah. But he's the bread of heaven, the bread to all nations. That's why I'm one with the 5,000.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

He he is. All right. Um next round is sacraments. Start bench cut. Baptism. Foot washing. Communion. Again, you are so twisted. I can't cut it in. You have to.

unknown 13:07

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

I am going to it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

This one's really, really, really hard. And this the thing about this one is let let's just both offer this disclaimer. It depends on the day. Right. It depends on the the spiritual experience you've most recently had. It depends on where your spirit is at on a current day, which of these, how you how you would rank these three. Because I mean, they're all sacred acts. Right. They all are more hallowed and special than anything else you can do on earth. Right. But unfortunately, I am sick and twisted and I'm forcing you.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

I'm so sorry. I shouldn't have called you that. But um, wow. Like today, where I am, I'm probably starting communion. Interesting. Okay, all right. I'm probably benching foot washing.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

And I'm cutting baptism.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Okay, before you give your reasoning, I just mine is the precise opposite. I'm starting baptism, I'm benching foot washing, and I'm cutting communion. So give me your reasoning.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Like I said, this is this is today. It's just because of where I am in the Holy Week and the reflection of his body and his blood. It's just um, you know, I'm going pouring over how much he poured. And uh that's just that's that's where I am today. And then um the service on Sunday and the experience that we had um with our foot washing service, um that that's still just ringing so loudly and within my soul and within my spirit. You know, you can't cut baptism, but you did.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

See, I it's interesting to me because our reasoning is the same and yet it led us to completely different results. Because where I'm at in Holy Week, I'm just so astounded and amazed by the notion of salvation. Because that that was the the purpose for which he poured was so that we could be saved and that we could be raised to new life in him. And so for that reason, and just because of the the excitement and the joy that always accompanies a baptismal service, I'm gonna start baptism. I also think that part of my ranking has to do with like scarcity in a sense. I think that the only reason that I'm cutting communion is because it's the one that I do the most often. So I feel as if I don't get to partake in the other two quite as much, so it makes them seem even more special, if that makes sense. So all right, your next three items are titles. Well, actually, let's do we'll we'll do things that you do. Um I also have titles, but we'll do that one next. But so I have preaching, teaching, and leading worship. Start, bench, cut.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Wow. I'm gonna start with what I feel like is one of my weakest areas, but I enjoy it is teaching. I'm gonna start teaching and I'm going to bench preaching, and I'm gonna cut leading worship.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Do you want to hear something kind of funny? I'm not surprised. I kind of expected that preaching, and teaching I felt like might be somewhat interchangeable, but I I I expected that to generally be your order there. I don't think you're weak at all at teaching. Okay. So thank you. You're welcome. Uh titles, okay. So start, bench, cut, pastor. Evangelist, choir director.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Start pastor. What was the other the other two?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Evangelist and choir director. Bench evangelist and cut choir director. Wow, the title that you held for so long, you're just yeeting that one out the window, huh?

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

It's okay. I I understand. Having been in quite a few of your choir practices, I understand why you might want to cut that one. Again. Again, I'm sick and twisted. Is that what again? You're not right. You're righteous, but you're not right. I'm righteous, but not right. Hey, that's actually very accurate and true. So now we've got this little moment of levity and laughter, so I'm gonna give you this last start bench cut. Um, and these are common annoyances. Okay, so start bench cut, the church copier or printer jamming, a church toilet running, or pro presenter glitching and messing up all your slides. Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

What was the first one again?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

The copier jamming, the printer that happens every day. It was created in the halls of 80s and Jesus went to liberate it, and that's what we're gonna talk about. That's definitely a cut.

unknown 18:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

So you're cutting the printer.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

I'm cutting the printer. And the other was toilet running and pro presenter glitching. Propresenter glitching. Uh I'll start pro-presenter glitching.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Okay. It depends here's the thing, it depends on how bad the glitch is. Yeah, it does. Because your slide's not coming up, like that's easy. We've all been there, right? But like, what if like a streaming service randomly pops up or like an ad you have no control over?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Oh, that could be embarrassing. That could be bad. Okay. So you're gonna bench the toilet running. I'm gonna bench the toilet running. I've had to fix so many of those even before service.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

I know you have. So uh full disclosure, the pro presenter glitching was was brought on by an anxiety that I had. We had a foot washing service on Sunday evening, and uh be because of reasons of things going on with members of the congregation, we weren't able to have live music that we had expected to have, and so mom looked at me just a few minutes before and was like, well, we need some music. So I went and pulled up some license-free uh Christian acoustic music on YouTube and started playing it, and then in the middle of the service, as mom is about to begin washing my feet, my eyes go wide because I'm like, oh my goodness, what if an ad were to start playing through the whole sanctuary right now during this very hallowed and sacred moment? Thankfully it didn't. Um but yeah, that was that was scary for just a moment there. So did you like did you like that edition of Start? I did. That was fun. All right, so before we delve into, we have a lot of scriptures that we're gonna break down today. Um quite a few of them we're we're just going to read and discuss thematically, not discuss super in-depth, um, because that's just the nature of the conversation that we're having today. Obviously, my my default setting is to discuss everything greatly in depth, but for for the sake of time and clarity on the subject matter that we're dealing with today, we're not going to get into the minutiae as much as we sometimes do of individual scriptures. We're going to get into the minutiae of an idea presented by scripture. But before we do that, I have a question for you.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

So we've we have both acted in the role of teacher, right? Right. Have you, and the the teacher-student dynamic is so so interesting, and you have really interesting and fascinating conversations with students, and as a teacher, you you probably feel like you shouldn't do this, but I think that sometimes it inevitably happens. Have you ever gotten into a sincere argument with a student?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

A sincere argument? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Uh or let's an impassioned disagreement.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yes, I have gotten into an impassioned disagreement. But you wouldn't characterize it as an argument. I wouldn't characterize it as an argument. I was I was not disagreeable.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Okay, Ruth Better Ginsburg.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Mm-hmm. So, but but I have. Um it's been it's been a while, but I have.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

So when I say that to you, when I ask you that question and your answer is yes, do you have an example that springs to the forefront of your mind? It's okay if you don't.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Uh I I don't really have one that's concise enough to go into right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

All right, that's fair. Um, and the reason that I'm asking this is because of this the subject matter we're dealing with today, and as I was as I was studying and mulling it over and praying about it, I I was reminded of an argument that I got in with a student uh just a little over a year ago now, I guess it was. And it's a student that I love dearly and have what what I would characterize as a great relationship with this student. And um but near the beginning of our relationship, uh the the student made an assertion in my classroom. And it indignation rose up in me in a way that I don't know that I'd ever fully experienced before. And it was because this student made the claim that there are people beyond Jesus' capacity to save. That there are people whom Jesus does not love. And there are people whom Jesus will not pursue because of choices that these people have made. And he was making this assertion about, you know, a group of people that are already very othered and ostracized within society. And I got so defensive, and it was just so funny to me looking back on it after the fact. Because I mean, I was very professional and measured with my words and everything, but I don't know that I've ever felt exactly that way until that moment. And it was just striking to me, like I said, when I thought about it after the fact, because I'm a very Socratic person as a teacher. Like even when I might personally disagree with something someone's saying, my my MO is always to just ask them questions and let them unravel their thinking themselves. But I genuinely felt angry. And that had never happened that I'd felt angry at a student for something they'd said before because students, you know, they're kids, they're figuring it out. But the fact that a kid had already had something so wrong impressed upon them, it it just grieved me and it made me indignant. And so I I one of the responses I gave was I shared the scripture of 2 Peter 3:9, which says, the Lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. And it always makes me indignant when anyone theologically tries to assert that there's anything beyond Jesus' power or authority or beyond his capacity for love, because his capacity for love is infinite. Right. He is love. And so he he can't be anything else because he is love. And yeah, yes, it's a perfect love and it's a holy love and it's a righteous love, but Jesus loves people, Jesus loves souls and spirits and hearts, and that those that's his desire is to be in right relationship with people. Right. That's the whole notion of the gospel. It's why he came, is to reconcile us to him and to the father so that we could be in relationship with him and with the Father. And so that that's a scripture that I've found myself having to share with with students when whenever they want to be dismissive of people that they disagree with or people that they just they just don't want to have to concern themselves with certain groups of people. And it can be, you know, the kid in class that was mean to them. And I have to remind them that Jesus loves that kid just as much as Jesus loves them. And the reality is that Jesus is not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. And so what we're talking about today, I feel like if we were going to sum it up simply, it's that Jesus came for all, and Jesus accomplished for all. Exactly. Jesus, there's no one that's withheld from the good news of who Jesus is and what he's done. And so our topic today is uh it's kind of a contentious theological topic. It's it is it shouldn't be, I don't think, but we'll we'll examine it together today and we'll we'll see what we think and what our readers think. But our topic today is the harrowing of hell. The harrowing of hell. And this is a topic that I find very fascinating. And one of the reasons I find it so fascinating is no one seems to want to talk about it. I mean, how many sermons have you heard on this topic in your lifetime?

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Uh I've never heard I don't think I've ever heard a complete sermon on this. I've heard snippets, snippets or whatever. How frequently would you say you've heard allusions to it?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Um, maybe once a year. If like over the course of your life once a year? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Really?

SPEAKER_00 26:14

You think you've heard it 60 some odd times?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Just the snippets, not the sermon. Okay. Because people like to pull out something that uh scripture and revelation that ties into this. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

So like just a soundbite, not even explaining what it is.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah, you usually get it at Easter.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Okay, all right. I I'm with you. I'm tracking with what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I I I agree that it's it's it is only a soundbite that you're ever presented with. And what's so interesting to me is that even the soundbite is often omitted from these timelines we see of Holy Week. You know, you've you've heard me say this. I said it at the end of the episode that we put out last week, that you always see, you know, what Jesus is doing Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and then Saturday, it says Jesus doesn't do anything. And it drives me crazy. Because even if like you want to have theological debate about the the semantics of this what happened here in the harrowing of hell, you can't deny that it happened because it's presented in scripture. Right. And so I I it always grinds my gears. You're smiling at me, what do you have to say or anything? Because I call it the not so silent, silent Saturday. Yeah, that's what people it's it's silent Saturday. It's they they act like Jesus was just asleep.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

And it it it doesn't even jive with the rest of what they say most of the time, because n no one denies that when Jesus resurrected, he resurrected with the keys to death, hell, and the grave, right? That all authority had been handed over to him over those things when he resurrected. So, I mean, it just makes sense to me that Jesus was doing something on Saturday in order to have those in his hand when he resurrected. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

And I I fully believe, and that's the that's the snippet is that he rose with. Yeah, and the scripture actually says on death in Hades.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Is what Revelation says.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Well, yeah, the the semantics of the differences in terminology, that that needs to be a whole separate episode. I know. So as as much as it pains me as someone who's deeply committed to accuracy and etymology and language and all of those things, for the sake of this episode, we're we're going to talk about hell.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

And that's that's the terminology that we're dealing with because that's what this event is known as. Right. Is the heroing of hell. Hopefully one day we will do an episode where we get into the distinctions, because the the distinctions are significant.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Of what is hell, what is Hades, what is Sheol, what is Gehana, but for for the purposes of this episode, we're dealing with hell.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Yeah, for I I see it as future teaching because we've conflated them all and we've made them all one and the same. But for this purpose, the harrowing of hell.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah, well that's that yeah, that that is the terminology that I think was most readily accessible for the audience that was receiving this news.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Um, and I also think that we in a modern sense don't have the association with Hades that someone in a Hellenistic society would have had, right? That's that's correct. Living under Greek rule and then Roman rule, you would have associations and connotations with the term Hades that now we as a modern society we're divorced from those. We don't we don't carry those when we hear that term. Right. So I do think that at the time, when you hear Hades, you're probably thinking what we in a modern sense think of when we hear hell. Uh-huh. Because it's Hades, Hades has distinctions within it, but it is the place of torment. Yes. And so that's again, we'll we'll get into all of those at at a later date, I'm sure. But in order to discuss the events of the harrowing of hell, and in order to emphasize the central theme of Jesus coming for all and Jesus accomplishing for all, there are two rather lengthy passages of scripture that we're going to read today. And the first is Romans chapter 5, and it is the entirety of the chapter. But Romans chapter 5 says this It says, Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we celebrate in hope of the glory of God, and not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance, and perseverance proven character, and proven character hope. And hope does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous person, though perhaps for a good person someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us, much more than, having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his son, much more having been reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only this, but we also celebrate in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind because all sinned. For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of him who was to come. But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned, for on the one hand the judgment arose from one offense, resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious gift arose from many offenses, resulting in justification. For if by the offense of the one death reigned through the one, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one Jesus Christ. So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind. For as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous. The law came in so that the offense would increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more. So that as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

unknown 34:00

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

I mean, we could stop here. What what a beautiful message. What I mean, the the entirety of Scripture and the entirety of the gospel here in one chapter presented to the Epistle to the Romans. It all.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

I think sometimes and I think this is what happened with possibly your student. I wasn't there. But we try to make our world all and we don't have the the global perspective and we don't have the the world view, and we think that he would only come for people just like us. And and if you agree with Jesus' teachings, everything is about all. That's why he's the one-time, all-sufficient sacrifice for all. He is all in all. And so uh it's so hard not to go through and discuss this chapter at length, but this chapter is a it stands alone in what it in what it has to say.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

And we we will be pulling things that were asserted in this chapter out as we discuss the event of the harrowing of hell. But there's one more chapter that we need to read that emphasizes this theme of all and the all-sufficiency of what it is that Jesus has done, and that's 1 Corinthians 15. Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preach to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preach to you, unless you believed in vain. For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me did not prove vain. But I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach, and so you believed. Now if Christ is preached, that he has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain. Moreover, we're even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless, you are still in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ only in this if if we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied. But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man death came, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order, Christ the first fruits, after those who are Christ at his coming, then comes the end. When he hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when he has abolished all rule and all authority and power, for he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death, for he has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he says all things are put in subjection, it is clear that this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to him. When all things are subjected to him, that the Son Himself would all be will also be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all. Moving to verse 50. It says, Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that my flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I am telling you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brothers and sisters, be firm, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Again, a chapter that stands, that really, I mean, what can you say to add to the soaring rhetoric and beautiful spiritual revelation that's happening here? But people love to ask death, where is your sting? Death, where is your victory? And I feel like it's just so interesting to me that we we quote that so often, you know, it appears in songs and in sermons, but we don't delve into how it was that Christ claimed the victory over death itself. Right. And so it's it's for that reason that I wanted us to delve into what does it mean that there was this event that we know as the harrowing of hell? And I I think that we see allusions to it or or allusions that at least support the events here in this chapter, because how is it that the people that have passed away prior are referred to here? They're referred to as having been asleep. Right. As having been asleep. And so I think that that that you know that that's a terminology that we see occur quite a bit when we're referring to people who have died prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, right? Is that they're described as being or having been asleep. And again, also here we see so much of this emphasis of all, you know, as through one man, all died, through Christ, all are made alive. And I especially love the so that God may be all in all, right? It's it's all-encompassing. There's there's nothing exclusionary, nothing restrictive. No one is not part of this because it applies to all, it's for all, and it has been done by God who loves all. Amen. And so it's just uh it's again such a powerful chapter, and as we move through this discussion, we'll we'll pull out important bits and pieces. Was there anything before we move on that you wanted to emphasize? No, let's let's just move on. All right, so so the harrowing of hell is an event that is described as having happened after Jesus' crucifixion and burial and prior to his resurrection. And so it's for that reason that if I were to put it on the calendar, I would put it on the Saturday of Holy Week in between his crucifixion and his resurrection. So the harrowing of hell is an event that occurred, and we'll we'll read in the epistle of 1 Peter a description of it scripturally, but essentially what happens here is that Jesus enters the holding place of the dead. So he enters into hell and proclaims the liberty that is now guaranteed by what it is that he has just accomplished.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

In his death, the the message now that he proclaims that they no longer have to remain in this holding place of the dead because the way has been made for them to enter paradise or heaven and be brought into the very presence of God the Father. They were not permitted to enter that place prior to Jesus making the way for them. Right. But now that the way has been made, they can be liberated and they no longer have to remain in this place of consignment, this place of oblivion, this place of nothingness. Now they can go to the place that is everything because it is the very presence of God. So I know that we were talking about this before we began recording, but the harrowing of hell as an event was was understood and widely preached and accepted in the early church. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

In the early centuries of the church, and by the patriarchs of the the new covenant, those the uh the disciples, the apostles, um, it was something that was heralded, it was it was widely believed and as part of of the apostles' creed, as a matter of fact, and it was something. That for centuries people believed and adhered to it and it was just it was taught. But then somewhere along the way, and they've been accused of being with the Protestants, okay. Uh when Protestants love to mess stuff up, don't we? So anyway, that uh people began to deviate from this long-held tradition and belief. And um as we look at this, uh I think I think the the timeliness, the time, the length of time that it was so held on to. I think that's something we we have to consider um as as we look at this. And I know you know, um, I just nothing within me can sit with Jesus sitting still and lying still. He's the author of life, he's the prince of life. He put on the earth suit, okay. He had to exit the earth suit to go to depths, okay. So he has died, but what I believe happened between Friday and the resurrection Sunday is I believe that he descended into the the depths of death itself. And he had to go there to be able to conquer the depths of death. I think the first resurrection or I mean message, the first Easter message, if we must call it Easter, was actually preached in the depths of death, in the depths of hell. And so, um, but it is not believing in it is a newer thing. The church patriarchs and all fully believed in the in in this act and that Jesus did this.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

I completely agree with you that I think the the first sermon about the resurrection of Christ and what he had accomplished through death and resurrection was delivered here. That this this is what Jesus, this is what Jesus brought to them was in the first Easter sermon. Um and I I I agree that I mean it it is true that it is a it's a newer uh fad, if you will, to to reject this or not preach this. And do you have any any supposition as to why you think that suddenly after centuries there emerged a field of thought that this isn't what happened?

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Well, I think one of the main reasons is people struggle because Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross and said, This day you'll be with me in paradise. And people take that one phrase right there, and they think that Jesus kind of went to paradise, you know, and that the thief was with him on that day. And that's that is the argument that I hear every time about this.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Well, Jesus could not have gone into the depths because of the thief on the cross and what he told the thief on the cross, which is such a logically flawed argument because the thief on the cross is dying prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which would have made the way to paradise. Exactly. So when Jesus descends to the depths, uh-huh, do we not think that he's grabbing the thief by the hand and ushering him into paradise? That Jesus had to descend to get the thief. Exactly. Because there was no way to ascend prior to Jesus' resurrection. And so I just think that that's it's not not in a haughty way, but it's almost a laughable assertion that Jesus couldn't have descended because he said to the the thief, You'll be with me today. Well, Jesus went to get him that day.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

That's exactly right. And so, and one of the things we we need to examine is how far Jesus descended. Jesus descended, it was like in levels of of his descension, okay. And so, um, and after death, death was the door through which he could descend to the lowest.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

And um anyway, uh so we we it helped it brings more clarity even to Philippians 2. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Yeah, no, well, that's what I was about to say. Like the you describing the descension in those terms, it's such a beautiful image because it kind of makes this the completion of his mission in coming to earth, right? Because he descended from heaven to earth in order to save and salvage, but then he also had to descend even further still because there were those that he had to descend further to save and salvage. Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

He came for the souls and spirits of all. And there were souls and spirits who had not had the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Right. Well, those those who died prior to Jesus' life, they could not have heard the gospel. That's right. And you know, there there are those that we describe as righteous prior to Jesus' coming, but though they may have been righteous according to a Hebrew scripture standard, they still had not encountered the revelation of Jesus Christ. And that's what saves. That's right. That's how salvation is granted, is through Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yes, sometimes uh in our truth in our uh reading of the word and that kind of stuff, we have a tendency to take the old covenant and Christianize it. Oh, yeah, we do. I'm sorry, we're not gonna open that up that can. But we actually call those people Christian in the old covenant. Christ has not even been incarnated. Yeah, and so uh uh I think that's one of the things is when we read the old covenant through the lens and we're making them all Christians, we think we think they've had the chance. But no, they did not have the chance to uh experience what Jesus accomplished. So he had to go tell them. And I believe that's what he was doing. I really do.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

I do too. I think I think that there are probably a a lot of reasons that different sects of Christianity have distanced themselves from the teaching of the harrowing of hell. I think that some of it is because of like the notion of hell itself is somewhat contentious and can be divisive amongst denominations. Like we have some of us have different conceptions of what it is that hell represents, what it is that hell is, who hell is for. There's a lot of things that are sticking points for people. And so I think that anything that deals with with liberation from hell can get sticky for people. So I think that you know, that's that's a reason. I think a reason that it's some people some sects of Christianity have somewhat divorced themselves from theology in this way is because it's not presented strictly as narrative. And I think that there are some people that that struggle to wrap their brain around things that are not depicted narratively. Right. Like peep, some people need a story, they need beginning, middle, end in order to conceptualize something. And this does not appear narratively within the gospels, and I think that that is something that maybe causes people to struggle with it. And then I think a really prominent reason that this has been somewhat removed in evangelical Christian thinking is because we are so removed from the image and idea of what, according to the Hebrew scriptures, would happen to the dead. We are so removed from the concept of Sheol, right, that it it's it's a struggle to try to grasp what it means when we say that Jesus descended into the depths of death or into hell itself, because our New Testament conception of hell is very different from what that Old Testament conception of hell would have been. And so, in order to try to grapple with the harrowing of hell, we need to understand what this place that we're discussing is and what it has been understood to be prior to this point in time. So when you hear Sheol, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 52:29

I I I have a tendency to think grave. Okay. Um nothingness.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Yeah, yeah. Nothingness, oblivion. I think that those are those are fair conceptions of it. It's it's funny when when I hear Sheol, the first thing my brain does, I don't know why. I guess I must have heard a sermon that pointed this out when I was really young and it just stuck. You know how it's just funny the things that stick in your brain. Um, but Jacob saying my white head will go down to Sheol, that's always what I think of is Jacob, my white head will go down to Sheol, because I'm like, oh like he's old, he's gonna die soon. Like that's but Sheol, you know, as as a as a place that is theologically understood by adherence to the Hebrew scriptures by by by Jews even before they're known as Jews, because we haven't even really been able to define them by a region of Judea yet. Right. But but in the in the Hebrew scriptures, Sheol is originally understood to be nothing, to be the grave, to be oblivion, to to be death itself, right? And the idea is when you die, that that's it. That's it. You s you essentially cease to exist because you go into a state of seemingly eternal sleep. Right. Right. And this is the conception that exists for for most of, like I said, the Hebrew scriptures, where it is just believed that after death you are you were consigned to eternity in your grave, right? And we see this attested to throughout the Hebrew scriptures in many different ways. One of the most interesting ways to me is uh the story of the witch of Endor. Because how is it that Samuel is described as arriving onto the scene when he's summoned by the witch? He actually comes up from the ground. He rises from the ground, which to me is I like I believe that's intentional. Oh, I do too. I I think that you know the fact that he doesn't descend is telling to us. He ascends. So he's coming up from the earth, from the ground itself. He's not coming down from heaven, right? And so that that's how he is summoned by the witch. So I think that that's that's just a quick example that that attests to the idea that when even people of great faith perished under the old covenant, they went down. And he had to rise up in order to be summoned back to the earth. And I I think that one thing that's that's so beautiful and interesting to me about this conception of, you know, this is what our patriarchs believed happened to them upon death until they had a revelation that possibly made them hope for or believe in something greater, right? And the example I always point to with this is is David. Because how many times have you heard people recite, you know, David's response when they're like, Well, why were you mourning while the child was alive? But now that the child's dead, you're getting up and eating, and David says, Well, the child's not coming back to me, but I will go to him. And people quote that as if it's this like great moment of hope in eternity. And I genuinely believe that in the moment that David said it, David was saying, I'm gonna be consigned to nothingness like the baby. Right. Like there will come a time when I won't feel his pain anymore because I'll be in a grave. Yep. The baby's not coming back to me, but I'll go to him in death, in nothingness, in oblivion. That's how I'll be with him. But the beauty is that David, you know, in his darkest moment, at the you know, the the the low point of his biblical story, this is how he feels, and this is probably how he's been taught to believe his entire life. But David will also be able to prophetically anticipate that he'll be able to dwell in the house of the Lord forever. And so I think I I don't know how much it is that David is actually aware of these things versus it's God just speaking through him. But I want to believe that David, beyond his, beyond his sin, beyond his repentance, beyond his renewed relationship with his heavenly father, that maybe he was able to get just a partial revelation of what it was that was awaiting him and the eternal reward that he could go to, which which was being in the very presence of his father, you know, because what David desired more than anything was to build a house for the Lord so that the Lord's presence could rule and reign in his kingdom, and the reality is that he would not get to experience that fully until he went to his father's kingdom, right. And was there brought into perfect unity with his father's presence. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Um I I fully believe that through the Spirit, through David was prophet, priest, and king. A lot of David's Psalms are full of prophecy, and I think he wrote prophetically, but I I believe he had a revelation of the of that because he wrote and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

And on the subject of David, whether he fully realizes it or not, prophesying things, David actually prophesies about the harrowing of hell. Because it's David who writes that the Messiah was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh experience corruption. So for him not to be abandoned to Hades, it seems that David is prophetically anticipating that the Messiah will go to Hades. Right. That he will confront Hades directly. And so I think that, you know, now we can read the text that deals with the harrowing of hell itself. And that's we find that in 1 Peter. It's 1 Peter, it's 1 Peter chapter 3. Yes, it is. And it's beginning at verse 18. 1 Peter chapter 3, beginning at verse 18. It says, For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just and the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which he also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven after angels and authorities and powers have been subjected to him. And then skipping ahead into chapter four, we find, for the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as people, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. So this is the text that most prominently describes Jesus going and proclaiming to the souls in captivity in Hades or in hell the good news of what it is that he has accomplished. And so we we see it laid out here that this is something that happened, that Jesus went and did this. What stands out to you here in this passage?

SPEAKER_01 59:51

What stands out to me in this passage? I love it, where it says he went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison. Yes, that stands out. So why does that stand out? Because it was they were like in being held, they were captive, they were souls that were in captivity. And so, and Jesus in his life, Jesus came to deliver the captives. And so part of his ministry, part of what he said, the spirit of the Lord is upon me. Yes, he's going to deliver the captives, the people that are captive in sin here, but he will I don't believe he was going to leave anybody in captivity because he's the liberator, he's the deliverer, he's the one who sets free. And so these souls and these spirits that are have been in captivity have been in prison. Uh how could Jesus leave them there? He I fully believe, as Peter wrote, he went, proclaimed, preached to these people the proclamation that they could be set free to those spirits which were in prison. And he preached, he was the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Yeah, the the way came and told them the way. Yes. Yeah, that's just it's it's such a beautiful, it's such a stirring, striking image. Like I just don't no words can do it justice to to imagine God himself descending to the holding place of the dead and proclaiming to them that death has no power anymore. That's right. Like it just it's so beautiful. And what strikes me most here in this description is, you know, we we've talked about about David and about, you know, I mentioned Jacob and the patriarchs, the people that we like to describe as Christians erroneously, right? The people that Christians might look at the Old Testament and think, well, they're just like me. Um, but who is it here that it says that he went to liberate?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

Uh uh the dis the the disobedient, yeah, the ones from the days of Noah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

The ones from the days of Noah, the ones from the time when the world was so wicked that God flooded it. Right. And yet, even in what seems like judgment, God was planning grace. Exactly. Because the people that in our brain, you know, the way you hear this story delivered in Sunday school, it's always as if, you know, these people were just so cruel and so horrible and that they bullied Noah, and you know, and we we can get into whether or not that's attested to in the text. I mean, obviously they're wicked, right? But they're the exact nature of their relationship with Noah, we'll get into it at a later, later episode, I'm sure. But those who were were scoffing and denying and decrying the the plan of God, and you know, who had who had turned away from God entirely, so much so that he eradicated humanity. Even those Jesus goes and proclaims liberty to.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

See, we would like to think that those people just became fish food and they were absorbed. We don't even take the time really to consider the souls and the spirits of those. But Jesus, his spirit, came after the spirits of those in prison and the fact that he would go to the people that we would never think of going to. But yet we're called to.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Yeah, that's that's our mission field. It is. Like those, those are the people Jesus came for all. He came for all. There's no one that it doesn't apply to. Even those that we sometimes in our little haughtiness of Christianity might look at and think, oh well, they're so removed from us, they they wouldn't listen to what we had to say. Well, that's who Jesus went and made proclamation to.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

Those who had rejected Noah. Did you know we're so quick to condemn people that Jesus would never Well, Jesus doesn't condemn.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

That's right. There's no condemnation in Christ's Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

That's exactly right. And that's I'll be so glad when the church can get can grasp that. The church as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

Because um Well, I found it very interesting, you know, when you were you were emphasizing prison and that it was like a holding cell, you know. It it immediately conjured in my brain, you know, the image of the adversary who, you know, we we call the devil, we call Satan, we give him so many names and titles, but scripturally what he is is he's the adversary, and the role of the adversary is essentially that of a prosecutor, right? Right? That which is trying to condemn you, that which is trying to have you sentenced to some form of punishment. And so if we cast Jesus as the foil, as the antithesis of the adversary, which is what he is, right? Jesus is the liberator, the one who comes and breaks the shackles and the chains and sets free. And so that is the image that I have here is that the adversary is, you know, placed these people in prison, and Jesus comes and liberates them from that place. Right. And it just interesting though, because in the depiction that I have in my brain, if I were to close my eyes and visualize this, I don't even see the adversary at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

He's such a non-entity in this because in my brain, when Jesus comes in, the adversary can't be in Jesus' presence. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:30

Um, you know, some people depict, have depicted this thing of Jesus having this grappling and wrestling match with Satan. Jesus will allow us to wrestle and grapple. But Jesus didn't wrestle and grapple with Satan. Um, and at some point I may share my description of what happened. This is this is the way I describe it. They placed his body in the borrowed tomb. They stone the stone sealed the tomb as darkness had fallen everywhere. It was dark. Dark in the tomb, the sky was dark, the veil of darkness settled over the hearts of his most avid followers. Everyone grew everything grew still and dark and darker still. Make sure his body can't be taken. Guard the grave. Keep him in the tomb. Don't let his disciples steal his body. They could guard the outside, but they could not contain, guard, or comprehend what was taking place inside. His body may have been there, but the I am was not. While darkness gripped the earth, the halls of Hades lit up as he rescued the pinned up souls of eternity pass. Satan's gleeful laugh silenced as Jesus Yeshua simply took, with all authority, as the I am the keys to death, Hades or the grave. Some have depicted this as a great wrestling match between Jesus and Lucifer. I simply see it as the one with all authority walks into Satan's domain and Satan surrenders. As the purity of the perfect one penetrates the halls of hell, hell's darkness, Satan falls at his feet and begs him to take whatever he came for and leave. Please take the keys and go.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm gonna read some some of my own words in a moment, but before I do that, I mean, yeah, that's it's a beautiful depiction. And one thing that I am struck by in the description that that Peter offered here is when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, because that goes back to what we read from 2 Peter, that God is not slow as people would count slowness, but is patient toward you. And I feel like that it's whoever happens to be reading, it's a love letter to them. And God is not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. God desired the repentance and the reconciliation of even the scoffers and the deniers in the days of Noah. And of course, he wanted the hearts of the scoffers and the deniers because look what his followers were doing. While Jesus is being crucified and entombed, all of his followers, all of the people that he loved most dearly and intimately, except for the women who followed him, which, you know, they're they stuck by his side. But the men that had traveled with him and lived with him and broken bread with him and known him more closely than anyone, even they have scattered and denied. The only one that didn't scatter was John. Exactly. John the Beloved is the only one that followed him all the way to the foot of Calvary. But the fact that God, in his mercy and in his grace, that he's patient, that he doesn't get frustrated when we're in the midst of these seasons where we do deny or we do try to, you know, remove ourselves from him. Right. That he's patient toward us. And he's always pursuing us. And Jesus is always proclaiming good news to us, no matter where we are, no matter what pit we put ourselves in, there's no place too deep, too grave, that he will not come and proclaim and try to liberate us from. So he pursues the disobedient, the scoffers, the deniers. Samuel Renahan describes the event, the harrowing of hell, in a poem in this way. He says, He whose body was entombed, went down in soul below, to free us from our darkest doom and make an open show of all the host in Hades well and all the devil's spawn, that we might never have to dwell or fear where he has gone. O Azazel, you wasteland haunt, what happened to your goat? Why do you no longer vaunt or taunt or flaunt or gloat? Perhaps it was a simple act that left you thus confined. Perhaps it is this simple fact that eats and gnaws your mind, that you yourself became the priest that slew the paschal lamb, and thus defeat and downfall came about by your own hand. Crux, Morse, and fairy, solace nostra est, our sins have been removed as far as east is from the west. For he has paid our ransom price, his death has set us free, and in his resurrected life we live eternally. Let all in heaven, earth, and hell, who hear his holy name, incline the head and bow the knee, let every mouth proclaim. We now confess that Jesus Christ is Savior, King, and Lord, worthy to be loved and served and honored and adored. Demons, spirits, all who live pay tribute and applaud. Angels, saints, praise Jesus Christ, praise him, the Son of God. The title of the event is so interesting to me. The harrowing of hell, the torment of the place of torment. See, Christ enters the place of distress and causes distress for it. Christ through death conquers death. Christ, when seemingly destroyed, destroys the destroyer. What a notion! That Jesus himself appeared to those who were enslaved in death, to those who had perished in disobedience, to those imprisoned in the holding place of lost souls, and proclaims liberty bought through his own very life for those very souls. Don't tell me that there's anything that Jesus can't redeem. Don't tell me there's anyone my Jesus is content to leave in darkness. Don't tell me there's anyone beyond the reach of my Jesus. Don't tell me there's anywhere my Jesus won't go to proclaim life and liberty. Don't tell me there's anything outside of Jesus' authority or power. There's no pit too deep, no chasm too wide. When he lived, died, was buried, and resurrected, he proclaimed deliverance for all. All may be saved through the sacrifice alone. Through Christ alone, all may be reconciled through the one. He did it, he accomplished it, he completed it. At Calvary, he finished it. At the harrowing of hell, he proclaimed it. And at his resurrection, he proved it. Whatever you have need of, he has fulfilled it. People might say this doesn't apply to me, but let me assure you, it applies to all. Some might say, you don't know what I've done, where I've been, the mistakes that I've made, but I'm here to proclaim it doesn't matter what pit you find yourself in, there is nowhere beyond the scope of Jesus Christ's power or his love for you. Whether you ascend to highest heights or make your bed in Sheol, he is there. Maybe you've been disobedient, but Jesus delivers even the scoffers who denied God in the time of Noah. Maybe you've been rebellious, Jesus reconciles even the severest reprobate. Maybe you've been prejudiced, Jesus pardons those who have persecuted him. Paul himself typifies this. He persecuted the church until the moment that Jesus was made manifest to him. And after his conversion, Jesus uses him to lead the very church that he had sought to destroy. That's who our Jesus is. He extends grace to the guilty, mercy to the murderer, salvation to the sinner, life to the lawbreaker. Because it's not about what you've done, it's about what he's done. So whatever it is that you have need of, whether it's deliverance, healing, salvation, revelation, know this. It is available to you. He has already accomplished it. All you have to do is receive. Wherever you find yourself, whatever is confronting you, however hopeless you may feel, know this. You are squarely within the jurisdiction of his power and his love. However, you may doubt his desire to redeem you, know this. It is precisely for your sake that he suffered and died and descended to deepest depths. He did not come to offer partial atonement, partial satisfaction, or partial deliverance. He did not come to save some. All includes your neighbor, all includes a person just like you, and all includes the person you have nothing in common with. All includes all manner of folk, all titles, all people, all includes the Democrat, the Republican, the Independent, the Atheist, the Gnostic, the Muslim, the Jew, the Israeli, the Palestinian, the man, the woman, the non-binary, the member of the LGBTQ community, the homeless, the widowed, the orphaned, the hungry, the sick, the crippled, the disenfranchised, the refugee, the immigrant, the rejected, the cast out, the murderer, the criminal, the betrayer, the guilty, the condemned, the person that you would never think to seek out. Christ came for all, lived for all, died for all, loves all, seeks all, pursues all. And we have the audacity to sometimes act as if there are some outside of the scope of his redemptive power and all-consuming love. We have the audacity to sometimes feel as if we are outside of the reach of his all-sufficient sacrifice and unconditional love. But the truth is, he accomplished all for all. All was accomplished through one as one was given for all.

unknown 1:16:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Do you know how hard it is not to say praise the Lord and hallelujah?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

I know it's hard for me too, but like I mean, we can and we should probably. Well, thank you. Because I mean, genuinely praise the Lord that this this is who he is. This is his heart displayed for us.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:50

Exactly. I'm just I'm I'm overwhelmed right now, okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

I'm just but that's I mean, this is why I I cannot wrap my brain around rejecting the notion of the harrowing of hell, because I genuinely believe that it is entirely central to Christian theology. Because it is the completion of the work that Christ came to do. And if you don't acknowledge it, you're almost you're almost cheapening it. You're you're almost you're failing to note the final step because the reality is there is no place Jesus will not go, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:33

To seek lost souls. Well, it completes Jesus' own self-emptying. Yeah it's the completion of that that I mentioned in in Philippians chapter 2. He descended to the earth to be one of us. He then descended to a lower place to be the servant of us all. He then descended to the cross where experienced a criminal's death, and lastly, he hits rock bottom when he descends to the realm of the dead. However, death could not hold him, nor could it hold those who belonged to him. He went there to preach and he brought those out who received.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:10

It's it's it's the completion of his his lowering and his humbling, it's the completion of his ministry. He came to seek and to save that which was lost. And so he went to the place of ultimate loss to save those. It just it Jesus is made so manifest, Jesus is revealed so clearly in this event. Like I said, this this to me is the heart of Jesus. That he goes, he goes to a place that is seemingly antithetical to him, right? He is everything, he goes to the place of nothing. He is liberty, he goes to the place of enslavement, right? He is deliverance, he goes to the place of punishment.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:56

And he saves, delivers, rectifies all of these things, the people who were there, because Jesus is not willing to leave anyone. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:06

He's not willing that any should perish. Exactly. But that all should come to repentance, and it's the goodness of God.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:13

And what's mind-boggling to me is like the reality is we have all been those souls. We have all at some point been entombed in oblivion. We've all been consigned to darkness with seemingly no hope of liberation until the revelation of Jesus Christ came to us. See, that's the only reason that we're ever set at liberty is the revelation of Jesus Christ. And the ultimate irony that exists is that sometimes we forget that we have been those souls. And then we look around and we expect those who are where we once were to be different, to behave differently without them having experienced the same revelation. That's right. We we get frustrated when people are what we once were. And I it just it makes no sense to me. How can we expect people to behave as if they've been liberated when they haven't experienced the revelation of Jesus Christ? Exactly. We want them to act liberated and they're still in prison.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:17

Exactly. Because he's not been made manifest to them yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:21

And we we're supposed to be his hands and feet.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:24

Yeah. How is he made manifest today?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

Right. We're supposed to represent him, we're supposed to reflect him, we're supposed to prove him because we are supposed to be conformed to his image. And then we act surprised when the world doesn't just want to have this amazing conversion experience. Well, they haven't actually been introduced to the sincere image of Jesus. It grinds my gears because Jesus, the the only way to bring transformation is through a revelation. And it has to be a revelation of Jesus. Not what we want to make Jesus to be, but who he actually is. That's true. That's what transforms people's lives. There is no transformation without revelation. Christ himself is the way. And the way to paradise was made by his atonement, death, and resurrection. It makes perfect sense that prior to these events, prior to his atonement, death, and resurrection, there was no way to heaven. No way to the presence of the Father. But just as Jesus' death tore the veil to the temple, his descension to deaths and his message to those ensnared in death made a way for all to enter into the Father's presence. See, it wouldn't have been all sufficient if there were still some entombed in death. Right. For it to be a sacrifice for all, he had to go proclaim it to those who had lived and died before the way had been made. Yes. Before Jesus, there is no purpose, there is no liberty, there is no joy, there is no fulfillment. Of course, Jesus would reveal himself and offer these things to those who lived before his incarnation. Jesus' desire is for all to be reconciled to him. So certainly he would appear to those who lived and died before his reconciliation.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:39

That's the only thing that's just.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:42

Yeah, yeah. It's God in his infinite justice. How could a loving just God leave those ensnared in death simply because of the chronology of when they existed? Right. And we know he's not willing for any to perish. So why would he leave millions of people ensnared? He he can't leave people ensnared. It's not his nature to do so.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:14

Yeah, we we try to and we've kind of covered this already. We try to make him into our nature. And forgiveness, love, uh reconciliation. That's all those things are really against uh our nature as humans.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:32

But they are his nature.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:33

They're his nature. They're his nature, and that's the nature we are to take as we are walking through this journey of this life with him.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

I think that it's somewhat ironic. Actually, it's deeply ironic. That people seem to think that the notion of the Christian walk means that you don't have to be wrong a lot of the time. When, as you just outlined, like our nature is contradictory to the nature of Jesus Christ, to the nature of our God. Right. And so the reality is, like I said, we need transformation. Transformation comes through revelation. But if I'm continually being transformed, I've got to, I've got to be uncomfortable with some things. And I've got to admit I was wrong about something yesterday. Because the more I shed my nature and take on his nature, it's it's not always an easy, smooth process. It's it's gratifying and it's worth it. But the process of being transformed isn't always just, you know, everything's not sunshine and rainbows. It's it's grappling and it's wrestling and it's recognizing, hey, something that I maybe held fast to, I might have to give this up because I have to go and be the hands and feet of Jesus. And I can't sabotage my witness by holding on to these deeply held opinions that I had yesterday. The reality is I have to go love people, I have to represent truth to people, and I have to point them towards a sincere revelation of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:16

Right. And we have to be willing to meet people where they are. Yeah, well Jesus Jesus met us where we were. That's what Jesus does. And so we have to overcome that feeling that we can only go to people that we like or people like us.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:33

Well, look look where Jesus went. He went to the place most contrary to his nature. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:40

Life went to death.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:42

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The way, the truth, and the life went to death and spoke truth so that they could know the way that had been made for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:54

Yeah. So, you know, we've talked about the the image that's conjured in our brains of this, right? And I I need to ask first, first off, do you have anything that we haven't pointed out or that we haven't said that you really feel like needs to be said before we move towards closing?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:12

No, I I think we I think we've covered it. I've got some things that we might bring out in a future podcast or something like that. But but I just feel like there's a completeness to what's been said.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:23

And so Well, I do we want to ask this one final question because I have one last thing I want to read before we close. And the question is this you know, we've talked about the the image that's conjured in our brain. And the harrowing of hell is a very famous image to been depicted in art throughout the centuries. So there's all of these different depictions. A lot of them include Jesus holding Adam and Eve by the hands because, you know, as we said, as through one man, death entered, so through one man now life has been given. As through one man, you know, sin enslaved through one man, all have been liberated. So there's all these images of Jesus holding hands with Adam and Eve, the first sinners, and them being the first to experience going from sin to liberation, from death to life. Then we also talked about the thief on the cross and Jesus essentially grabbing him by the hand and leading him into paradise, right? There there's we've talked about David, we've talked about Jacob, we've talked about the patriarchs, you know, we've talked about Noah. So when you when you picture this, is there anyone that springs to your mind who do you envision Jesus exiting with?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:34

I do envision Jesus exiting with Adam and Eve because they're regaining what they lost.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:43

They're going to paradise, which is what they were that's all they were designed to know. That's right. Was paradise and the presence of God.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:48

And so, you know, they know what it was to lose that. And then Jesus walks in and he liberates them and takes them back. of what they had lost. I can't imagine what it was like when um Jesus walked in. You know, and they they were like, I used to I experienced this in the cool of the day. You know, and and I bel you know I bel that's just the the the image that I have and then Jesus bringing them and liberating them from that. You know I I do see some of the patriarchs. I I see I see Moses I do. But sometimes I get a glimpse of maybe a scoffer or a mocker or one who one of the maybe the person in jail drove the pick through these people too Jesus went.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:51

Well that's what my next question was going to be who do you imagine him embracing? Because I asked who do you imagine him exiting with who do you imagine him embracing and on like within the same vein and on the same theme of of what you just said there there's one other poem that I want to read today. And I understand that this poem is not scriptural. I'm not I'm not trying to claim that this is a scriptural poem but I just want to read it and then I should just kind of bask in the image that it gives us of the heart of Jesus and how it typifies what we've been talking about today that there's no one beyond Jesus' desire or his capacity to say and this poem is by Ruth Etchels and it's called the Ballad of the Judas tree in hell there grew a Judas tree where Judas hanged and died because he could not bear to see his master crucified our Lord descended into hell and found his Judas there forever hanging on the tree grown from his own despair so Jesus cut his Judas down and took him in his arms it was for this I came he said and not to do you harm. My father gave me twelve good men and all of them I kept though one betrayed and one denied some fled and others slept. In three days time I must return to make the others glad but first I had to come to hell and share the death you had my tree will grow in place of yours its roots lie here as well there is no final victory without this soul from hell. So when we all condemned him as every traitor worse, remember that of all his men our Lord forgave him first. Because the reality is if Jesus goes to the holding place of lost souls, Judas is there. I started to say that earlier imagine what that would feel like for Judas who committed suicide because of the guilt of having condemned Jesus to death and have Jesus walk in to the holding cell of the dead and liberate those that were there. Judas would be the only one that knew Jesus as Jesus you know that walked with him. Obviously Moses and Elijah saw were on the Mount of Transfiguration but the only one who in in his regular temporal life knew the face of Jesus so imagine that he recognized him first.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:39

That's just incomprehensible.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:41

That really is well I mean Jesus's capacity for grace for forgiveness for reconciliation for love that's the only word for it it's incomprehensible and yet it's what he calls us to grow in and that's what that's what we're gonna talk about next week. We're gonna discuss the manner in which Jesus revealed himself following his resurrection so if we take this poem and we take you know the harrowing of hell to mean that Jesus was made manifest to Judas next week we'll discuss the ways in which he was made manifest to some of his others his other disciples and followers. So anything you want to say before I close this out with priceless pulpit. Go ahead and close it out I'm up for priceless pulpit this week and uh we did communion in service on Sunday morning and as I was preparing the communion you know we had a little bit of a mishap on Sunday morning where I had to prepare each cup individually without any tools at my disposal so I was literally like pouring and we we used every manner of thing we used but we ended up using a funnel and a water bottle all different things to try to prepare the sacrament because they we we could not prepare them the way that we typically do because of um some issues that we ran into. So as I was preparing I jokingly said you know well we we could do it the the way of the last supper and all drink out of the same cup. And I was reminded of when I was teaching the Last Supper or the final dinner as Haley called it and this the story deals with Haley one of my students from children's church uh we're reading the Last Supper and we're we're reading the instituting of the Lord's Supper and how the disciples all drank from the same cup and bear in mind this is 20 this is the very beginning this is Easter of 2021. So I'm reading the narrative and I I say that uh you know they all drank from the same cup and Haley is like they drank from the same cup and like we're we're all six feet apart like we're still at full COVID lockdown protocol. She goes they drank from the same cup and I was like yeah they did Hayley she goes well this must have been before COVID and it was just like it's it's so funny but like that's a kid that in her brain all of all of human history has happened in the span of such a short amount of time you know and so she was just flummoxed to realize that the disciples lived and the last supper occurred prior to COVID. Yeah so that's BC before BC before COVID there you go so that's my priceless pulpit you'll be up for our next episode um I think this has been a really good one I really enjoyed this. I have too this is one of my favorite subjects to talk about and what we'll be talking about next episode is also one of my favorite subjects I hope you'll all join us. Thank you for listening. Thank you we've we've loved getting people to reach out about the past few episodes and what they've thought and you know how they've listened. Some people have been listening while they've been out for a walk or while they've been cleaning while they've been driving so so keep reaching out letting us know what you think and what you'd like to hear because I mean we're we're here to teach and preach and spread the gospel. That's exactly right. But not delete choirs.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:51

Not delete choirs I like that I have I have retired from choirs.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:54

All right this has been Good Fruit Good Root. We'll see you again next episode