Matthew 21:18-19

Listen as hosts Kyla and Denise examine Matthew 21:18-19 and its connection to Genesis 3! Learn the distinction between exegesis and eisegesis and the symbolic significance of fig leaves throughout the biblical text.

*Note: this episode was recorded nearly a year prior to publishing*

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Shalom, hello, and welcome to this episode of Good Fruit, Good Root. I'm your co-host, Kyla. And I'm your co-host Denise. And today she's going with co-hosts. Sometimes she changes up what she wants to be introduced as. So this is our first full-length episode, even though our introduction felt very much like a full-length episode. We joked ahead of time that that episode should probably last about 20 minutes, and then when it was all said and done, it was quite a bit more than that. So in hindsight, we probably should have known two ministers gapping with one another, that that would get a little lengthy. But pretty much as soon as we concluded recording that first episode, mom looked at me and was like, You said shalom to open and close the show, but never explained it. Uh and I exc I maybe committed the um maybe I was wrong to assume that everyone would understand the meaning of that term because to me it's it's such a commonplace term. But for those who are uninitiated who have never attended a Jewish service or have never watched an episode of NCIS, frankly, uh the term shalom is hello, goodbye, blessings, and peace within the Hebrew language. It is also the first word that you learn or are taught when you begin to study the Hebrew language. So it just felt apropos to start the show with it. And so I guess technically that was our first Hebrew word that I'm teaching listeners in our introductory episode there. So, shalom, welcome to the show. Um, and we hope that blessings and peace are finding their way to you now. Uh, and before we really embark on reading and diving into scripture this week, there are a couple other terms that I wanted to define and discuss before we really, really delve in here. And those terms are exegesis and eegesis. And I felt like it would be really important before we begin pouring over the biblical text for us to talk about our approach to the study of scripture. So for those of you who do not know the definitions of these terms, exegesis is essentially critically reading the text, reading the text for what precisely is in the text and understanding the context in which that text exists, right? So if I were to compare it to something, exegesis is like reading something with a textual approach. Um, if you're into constitutional law, then you'll understand what I'm saying there. But exegesis is simply reading the text for what the text says and what it meant in its original context. Yes, it stands alone. Whereas isegesis is reading into the text. So you hear that I at the beginning of isegesis, right? Exegesis is, you know, pulling out what is in the text. Isegesis is putting yourself into the text. So oftentimes what we find Christians doing from a pulpit or um in leadership, you know, in Bible studies or writing devotionals or things, is somewhat of eegesis, right? Putting themselves into the text and then interpreting the text through that personal lens of what this means to them, of what truth they have found within it, but maybe is not sh maybe is not strictly speaking just within the text itself. And I want to make it very clear at the start here that I think both of these approaches have their merits, and I think both of these approaches have their dangers. I don't think that you can have one without the other. I think that they somewhat have to exist in tandem. It's very interesting for me because as a scholar, I subscribe to exegesis more often than not, right? Someone who's studying scripture academically, I need to perform exegesis on the biblical text. But as a minister and as someone who tries to help individuals understand the applicability of scripture in their daily lives, there has to be a degree of eisegesis within that role. And so I think that if you lean too heavily to one or the other, you lose some of the beautiful aspects of the biblical text. I don't think that I can sit here and strictly, as someone who is trying to unpack the beauty and the depth and layers and nuance of scripture, just do one or the other, right? I can't that's impossible for me. I can't just sit here and be a textual critic, although I do might call myself a textual critic, and I can't just sit here and purely read my what I want to find in the biblical text, you know. I think that most Christians probably most day-to-day lay people in the church probably aren't as familiar with exegesis, so they find themselves doing eegesis more often. And so I think the dangers of eegesis are possibly a little bit more obvious, right? If I'm always just looking for myself in the biblical text, then I'm more likely to read it in a way that's going to be favorable to me, right? Um I am going to attempt to reinforce my preconceived opinions and ideas with the biblical text when maybe that's not what the biblical text is doing, right? So I do think that those dangers are maybe a little bit more obvious. But I also think that as Christians, as people who know that we have the active Holy Spirit of God indwelling within us, that for us not to believe that there's some form of synergy when we're reading the biblical text and encountering the unscripturated word of God in that way, that we're pulling these aspects of the divine identity into alignment, of course, we are going to read things into it, and there's going to be these moments of revelation. And so I say all of this because I don't I don't want us to act like we're something that we're not. I don't want us to present as if we're going to be doing exegesis or eegesis strictly. I want to be very honest from the top that there are going to be times where we talk about the historical context of what's going on in scripture and what it probably likely definitively meant as it was being pinned. But then also we're going to be very careful that right now, as believers, when we read scripture, there's not just one definitive meaning of the text. It is, it's it's the word of an infinite God, and it itself is infinite, and there are infinite interpretations. And one of my biggest pet peeves is when someone says definitive definitively, like, this is what scripture means. Scripture means myriad things. And our goal here is just to kind of strip a little bit of the mystery away and enlighten you to some of the things it means, and then hopefully you go read it for yourself, and the indwelling spirit of God within you aligns with the inscription spirit of God and word of God that is the biblical text, and then you have these moments of revelation for yourself. So we are not trying to be the perfect biblical scholar, we are just trying to share our experiences with the text and then hopefully encourage you to have your own experience as well. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

And the word of God is is alive. Okay, and because the word of God is alive, it's it's literally God's breath, God breathed. Um you can't just limit what he has breathed. Okay. And so that's why you and I both or anybody listening can read a a text of scripture, read it within the context of scripture and it speak one way to us one day, and then uh, you know, read it again later and it speaks differently to us. And uh it's because uh his word is alive. And what one thing that we sometimes try try to do um with Isa Jesus, as you were saying, are a danger that you have there, and you've kind of already um alluded to this, is that uh uh when we try to read it just for ourselves, sometimes we may overlook some of the things where God is calling us into account.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

And so we we always have to understand our position um as we're reading, as we're reading scripture, that you know, he's forming us, he's using his word to make us and shape us and mold us.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

And I think one of the moments when scripture truly came alive for me was when I had it pointed out to me that I didn't always have to align with the main character in the biblical narrative or the quote unquote good character. Obviously, one of the things that makes scripture so compelling and interesting is that many of the figures we're dealing with are deeply messy. Right. And they're so woefully human. And oftentimes in Sunday school and growing up in church, you have this idea that these characters that you're dealing with are these larger than life mythic figures and you know that they're righteous and they serve God and all of these things. But then when you really read the text, you're like, well, yes, they they are made righteous at times through their faith in Yahweh, but more often than not, they're they're making mistakes and being able to recognize myself in the midst of their mistakes, and that the same God that extended grace to them will likewise extend that grace to me, or is already extending that grace to me is such a beautiful thing. But a moment of epiphany for me was when uh a scholar that I deeply admire, Rabbi Dania Rutenberg, I remember reading some of her writings um dealing with the early chapters of Exodus, and she specifically wrote, you know, so often readers of the biblical text want to identify with the Israelites. But how often is it that we are Egypt? How often is it that we are mistreating others, that we view ourselves, you know, as situated more highly than others? How often are we restricting others? Um, and I just that moment of epiphany that I as an individual can be Egypt, and also that a collective, like structural entity that I could be part of, you know, politically or socially, could be Egypt. That just really shifted a lot of things for me. And I think that that's a really beautiful point. And I never want to negate the reality that I can identify with the the uh more nefarious or difficult characters or groups in scripture because I I am those things at times.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

We all are. Right. Years ago, and you probably don't remember this, I I had a I wrote a message that I felt like came from the Lord, and it was who am I? And I literally walked through each book of the old covenant, pulled out characters, I hate to call them characters because they were living people, but pulled them out and I stated what I could see in each one of those. And I identified more with their frailties and their failures and all of that. And so I the sermon came about who am I? Let's see, in the negative things of these people, but thanks be to God. I don't have to remain as I am because Jesus came, gave his grace, and gave his mercies so I could be transformed and conformed to the image of Christ. And so I I need to pull that one out. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

I would love to read that one. I love that it starts with the seemingly self-centric question of who am I? Uh-huh. And it ultimately ends up with the the whole point is to lose the I exactly and be conformed to him. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

And I think we're going to get back to the I a little bit later.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Oh, okay. All right. You got some ideas about where we're already going. Okay. So I say I say all of this about exegesis and eisegesis specifically because the the way that I see this conversation likely unfolding is a little bit different than what I think our typical structure of episodes is going to be. Most times I think that we are going to just read like one passage of scripture and dissect that. But today specifically, I want to read and dissect a passage of scripture that we mentioned in our introductory episode. But before we do that, I want to read just a couple of scriptures that occur elsewhere in the Bible and kind of use that lens because I do think that it's important as readers of the whole canon of the biblical text that we understand that occasionally, you know, passages that are books apart or even testaments apart sometimes coincide. And by me saying that they coincide, I'm not saying that you absolutely have to read these two things in light of one another, but when you do, it adds a whole nother just layer of nuance and revelation that can occur.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

That's that's correct. That's one of the it can be over overwhelming, like we talked about in the first episode. When when it comes to you like uh in a couple of different places in scripture, it literally sometimes you're just overwhelmed because you know I I don't know about you, but I know my finite mind could not put it all together. And so he is revealing and unveiling it to me in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

And so we we talked in the introduction about multiple God winks that have happened in our lives recently where we have dealt with the subject of the fruit of the spirit or what it is that the spirit is doing in our lives and what that should look like and what the pursuit of that should look like, also. And we didn't mention this explicitly within that episode, but one of the most obvious God winks that I've had in my ministerial experience was over the course of this past year, I was actually filling a pulpit on a Wednesday night for you. Right. And in the middle of my teaching, the Lord just completely disregarded what I thought I was going to be teaching and gave me completely new material in the midst of my speaking. And I had absolutely no notes and it just was entirely extemporaneous, but it entirely was not me, and it was him instead. But the scriptural text that I was dealing with helps us get to the core of the title and the mission of this podcast. And so I'm not going to read all of the texts that I dealt with that night. In time, I think that I will, and we'll discuss all of them, but I just wanted to read two verses specifically at the start of this episode here, and they come from Matthew chapter 21. Matthew chapter 21, verses 18 and 19. And pretty much any time that I'm reading in the New Testament, I will be reading in the NASB, the New American Standard Bible. And Matthew chapter 21, verses 18 and 19 in the NASB translation says, Now in the early morning, when he, he being Jesus, was returning to the city, he became hungry. And seeing a lone fig tree by the road, he came to it and found nothing on it except leaves alone. And he said to it, No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you. And at once the fig tree withered. So this is a narrative that we find in the last week of the life of Jesus Christ. And I don't think that we can possibly overstate the importance of the things that Jesus spent time doing in his last week here on earth. There's great theological, spiritual importance to every individual thing that he does. And I would love eventually for us to do a study specifically of each of those things and why they are so significant. But this one here tends to kind of either get skipped over or get like overly simplified when it's presented in the pulpits. Is that is that your experience that it's either not talked about or it's talked about in a very simple way?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yes, that is my experience. But I remember years ago when the Lord opened my eyes somewhat to this passage, and it was uh a big part of the primary text of a mess message that I was preaching when I was evangelizing. And I'll never forget the response that um of the people when I moved into the altar service that night because I think it was because it was a text they had heard many, many times, but no one had ever just stopped and preached on the text. And again, that was a time where the revelation was was really straight from him. And um I was I was just amazed at, you know, what he brought out uh in that. And so um, and since then this has always been one of my favorite texts. I don't know if you ever knew that or not, but this has always been one of my favorite texts.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

It's it's not one that we really spent a lot of time discussing. I do remember, I think it was while I was still at GW that I made the connection that we're gonna talk about in this episode, that I had that the connection was revealed to me, and I remember calling you and being like, Whoa, have you ever noticed this? This is really, really interesting. Um, but before before we get into that and before we break down the full chapter that we are going to be discussing today, uh I do think that oftentimes if this scripture is read from a pulpit, this is one of those where you know there's there's a lot of scriptures or a lot of little passages where it's like we only focus on like half of it, right or like one specific thing within it. And people love to focus on the the second half, the part that I didn't even read of what's happening here, where the disciples are amazed that the tree withered and Jesus is essentially like, why does that surprise you? Why are you impressed with that? You you have the power with your words to command anything to do anything, right? And that is the part that people most often want to discuss. Exactly. They want to talk about the measure of faith and what you can do with it. That's right, right? But but the impetus for that discussion to even be had is Jesus causing the fig tree to wither. That's right. And so we I want to talk about the symbolism of the fig tree, and we are going to do that, but before we even do that, I want us to really break down and discuss the chapter of scripture that we're going to be dealing with today, which is Genesis chapter three. And we talked about Genesis chapter three very briefly in our introductory episode, but what I want to do here is I'm going to read the chapter in its entirety once through, and then I want us to break it down and discuss it in sections. So I will be reading the entirety of Genesis chapter three, and I will be reading from uh the translations available on safaria.org, um, directly transliterating from the Hebrew into the English. And this is what we find there. It says, Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts that God Yahweh had made. It said to the woman, Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden? The woman replied to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the other trees of the garden. It is only about fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, You shall not eat of it or touch it lest you die. And the serpent said to the woman, You are not going to die, but God knows that as soon as you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like divine beings who know good and bad. When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they perceived that they were naked, and they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves loincloths. They heard the sound of God Yahweh moving about in the garden at the breezy time of day, and the human and his wife hid from God Yahweh among the trees of the garden. God Yahweh called out to the human and said to him, Where are you? He replied, I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid. Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat of the water? The tree from which I had forbidden you to eat. The human said, The woman you put at my side, she gave me of the tree, and I ate. And God Yahweh said to the woman, What is this you have done? The woman replied, The serpent duped me, and I ate. Then God Yahweh said to the serpent, Because you did this, more cursed shall you be than all cattle and all the wild beasts, on your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers. They shall strike at your head, and you shall strike at their heel. And to the woman, God said, I will greatly expand your hard labor and your pregnancies. In hardship shall you bear children, yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. To Adam, God said, Because you did as your wife said, and ate of the tree about which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it. Cursed be the ground because of you. By hard labor shall you eat of it all the days of your life. Thorns and thistles shall it sprout for you, but your food shall be the grasses of the field. By the sweat of your brow shall you get bread to eat until you return to the ground, for from it you were taken, for dust you are, and to dust you shall return. The human named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all the living, and God Yahweh made garments of skins for Adam and his wife, and clothed them. And God Yahweh said, Now that humankind has become like any of us, knowing good and bad, what if one should stretch out a hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever? So God Yahweh banished humankind from the Garden of Eden to till the humus from which it was taken. It was driven out and east of the Garden of Eden were stationed the cherubim and the fiery, ever-turning sword to guard the way to the tree of life. All right, so that is Genesis chapter three in its entirety. I am violating one of my strongest beliefs in life, which is that the great theologian Maria von Trapp is never wrong. And so you should start at the very beginning. That's a very good place to start. But instead of starting in Genesis 1, we're starting here in Genesis 3. We will discuss some things in the earlier chapters, probably in this discussion, and we will break down those chapters certainly as well. But in light of the name of this podcast, this felt like a really good place to start, even though it's not the very beginning. Yes. Uh, which maybe, maybe Genesis 1 isn't even the very beginning, but we'll discuss that in due time. So, Genesis chapter 3, I read it in its entirety. Is there anything that you want to say before we start just breaking it down in sections? Let's just you just want to do it in sections. Okay. So verse 1, I feel like needs to be discussed on its own. So we have Genesis chapter 3, verse 1. Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts that God Yahweh had made. It said to the woman, Did God really say you shall not eat of any tree of the garden? All right, would you like to would you like to go first here?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Well, I I could I could go first. And and one thing that I want to say, because I'm reading it in the New American Standard. Okay. And a definite difference is in my version that says he said. I think that's something that's a distinction there that we need to draw in the very beginning of this.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It has it has to be said here. Are we going to read this in the New Testament light that this is certainly Satan, the accuser, or are we going to read it in the old testamental light that this is a serpent? And I feel like when you're reading in Genesis, you you need to read it as a serpent.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Right. I I see that. And and do I believe that the serpent in Genesis is the dragon of revel revelation? But absolutely, I bl I do believe that. But I think as we approach this and unfold this today, we need to look at it as it being the serpent.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Right. And the the fact of the matter is, I mean, is the serpent really just the personification of the spirit of the accuser, or is it more likely that there was a physical serpent that the accuser was able to utilize? Right. Or that that a physical serpent in its actions was acting in accordance with the spirit of the accuser. Right. And so I do think, though, for for the intents and purposes of this discussion, it we are dealing with a physical serpent. Right.

unknown 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

So, now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts that God Yahweh had made, and it said to the woman, Did God really say you shall not eat of any tree of the garden? So there's a few things that need to be discussed here. I think the first thing that we have to do is provide a little bit of context from the preceding chapter, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Because I feel like oftentimes Christians probably read, and I I keep saying Christians, I I know that I'm very much generalizing. Maybe there's people listening that aren't Christians. I mean, people certainly study the biblical text that aren't Christians. And also when I say Christians, I am pretty broadly referring to American evangelical Christians. Right. Uh, but but large groups of purported believers read this, and I feel like, and I'm not, I'm not trying to be condescending in saying this at all because I did this for a large portion of my life, but they read it and they don't ask incisive questions. Uh-huh. Like they don't really interact with the text, they just read it and let it passively pass over them. And we need to ask questions as we read this text because immediately the question needs to be asked: why is the serpent targeting the woman?

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Why is it that the serpent is specifically tempting Eve? And I'm sure that there are some people that would say, well, because she's the weaker vessel. Well, we don't we haven't been told that yet. And also, what exactly does that mean? That's something we'll discuss at some point. But the reality is that there is a reason provided for us in the text itself for why it is that the serpent has a bone to pick specifically with the woman. Right. Right. And also, I think that, I mean, there's I don't I don't want to get into the weeds of future discussions that we're going to have too much here, but there's also something to be said for the fact that the serpent targets the woman. And if you read Genesis 1 and 2 strictly through the interpretive lens that most American evangelical Christians reading in an English translation do, you also have to admit that Eve was not there. That's correct. When God gave the specific instructions. Now, if you read through the Hebrew language, there's an interpretation that you can come to that does provide that Eve was there. And we'll talk about that in due time. I don't think that that needs to be in the very first episode here, because it's a little bit of a difficult pill for people to swallow sometimes. But if if you read strictly just the way that most English translations of the Bible are read and understood in modern charismatic circles, Adam was created first. And if Adam was created first and then God spoke the instructions about what is not to be eaten in the garden, then that makes Eve a little bit easier to convince because she wasn't there for the mandate directly from Yahweh himself. She has heard it in a through a game of telephone from Adam. Um but why is it that the serpent is targeting the woman, Nisi? Why is it? Yeah, do you do I know that you know the answer, so I've been talking a lot.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

You have been talking a lot. I'm enjoying listening to you speak.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Is that your way of telling me to talk more?

SPEAKER_00 30:38

But I just have to say this. We'll get to it in a minute. But I love it that your version said she was duped.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yeah, yeah, she specifically says he duped me. He duped me. Okay. Um so, so scripturally, it seems very clear if you read Genesis chapter 2 and then Genesis chapter 3, what we've had occur just pre just previously, just prior to this, is Yahweh looking for the Ezerkinegdo. Right. The fitting complement, the completion, the partner meant to stand face to face and side by side with the human. And he looks for this complement, this completion in all of the animals. All of the animals are brought before the human and they're evaluated, and it's decided that they are not the Ezerchinecta. Right. And so the serpent has a bone to pick because the serpent was passed over for this promotion, essentially, and then the woman taken from the side of the human became the Ezerkinegda, became the perfect compliment, the completion, the partner. And so the serpent is likely jealous, is likely believed, is likely envious, which would make the root of all strife in humanity and the root of all sinfulness jealousy. Right. So you you seem like you have something you want to say.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

I I that's that's what I believe fully. And um, and you know, we don't have this revelation yet, but the Bible later explains to us just how horrible and destructive jealousy is. Okay. And so um I f I I believe that the serpent could not bear to see the creation that God had made and formed, literally formed, and God had breathed into the serpent could not bear to see that um creation being able to be to experience the glory of God. I think he thought he hoped he would be the completion and it was something that uh he he was not uh chosen for. He and he did not get to become that. And I think jealousy um over that, and jealousy because he saw God so intimately loving this this creation that he became just consumed with jealousy, and that was what motivated him.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Well, I'm sure that it has to be somewhat of a motivating factor for you to sit there and say, I'm the shrewdest, I'm the most intelligent, I'm the most qualified, I'm the smartest. Why can't I be chosen? And you know, that again is it's a self-centric way of thinking, but how often do we believe that we're the most qualified for something? Because our perspective is so situated on self. And so we believe that we ourselves are are the one that is deserving of this. And if we don't get what we believe we rightfully deserve, then are we not going to act in jealousy? So the serpent is likely inspired to act because of its envy towards Eve, who has not been named yet at this point in the biblical text. She's strictly the woman. And the first thing that the serpent says to her is Did God really say you shall not eat of any tree of the garden? Which that right there, that is so interesting to me because it it summarizes a central biblical truth, which is that the greatest tool that an adversary has at their disposal, whoever the adversary is, is making you question the truth of what God has spoken to and about you. That's right. The greatest thing the enemy of your soul can do is make you doubt the truth of what God has spoken to or about you. And God has spoken directly and truthfully about what tree they are precluded from eating in the garden. But the serpent is trying to just plant this seed of doubt. Did he really say that? And so often I feel like our adversaries do that to us, where the did God really say that that specific prophecy or promise is going to happen to you? Did God really say that you're fearfully and wonderfully made? Did God really say that he has a plan and a purpose for your life? You know, like these little just footholds that the adversary wants to get in our lives by making us doubt the truth of who God is and what he has spoken.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Exactly. And then you find him following that same pattern even with Christ. He tries to get Christ to doubt the word, and Christ was the living word. I'm I know I'm jumping probably way ahead, and you're gonna get upset with me. But anyway, um that's his that's his number one tool, I believe his number one tool in his toolbox is to try to get us to doubt what God has said. And it's so clear right here in the in the very beginning.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

But it's it's nearly possi it's nearly impossible to withstand an attack of that nature if you don't know the truth of what God has said. Exactly. And if you have not intently studied his word and know that you know what he has said, then you're you're more likely to be susceptible to that line of attack.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

That's that's so true, and that's one of the reasons that we are such advocates of biblical literacy. And uh so many times, even when I encounter someone who I know who has not had the opportunity to read scripture, I automatically begin to say, You get these scriptures, write them, put them around your house, put them on your bathroom mirror, because I know that the attack is coming where he's going to try to get the person to doubt what God is doing. So I try to start getting key scriptures into their spirit so they can they can war against him as he fires his starts at their minds.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

All right, so continuing on, it says, The woman replied to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the other trees of the garden. It is only about fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, You shall not eat of it or touch it lest you die. And the serpent said to the woman, You are not going to die. But God knows that as soon as you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like divine beings who know good and bad. What I find so interesting here is we've already established that the serpent is motivated by jealousy. And here it's like he's using jealousy as a manipulation tactic. Right. He's trying to make Eve jealous of God, of the divine beings, and what they are capable of. And he's also presenting it as if God would be jealous of the humans if they were to partake of this and then have that knowledge. Right. So it's a classic case of projection of trying to cover up what it is that he's dealing with and why he's acting this way by putting that on others and saying, well, God's jealous because you, if you do this, you'll be like him, and instilling that little root of jealousy in Eve herself.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Uh-huh. Well, he he wanted to be like God. Well, I mean, he's a serpent. That's right. Okay, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Oh, I'm sorry. We gotta, you gotta, gotta do our best.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

This will be so hard for me. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Um, so what what about verses two through five jumps out at you, the ones I just read.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Well, the th when we were talking about um manipulating what God has said, you also see what you see here is you see her adding to what God has said. And he taking away from what God has said. So by the time you get through these few verses, you're like, Well, what did God really say? Because that's you know, when when the enemy starts uh causing us or we allow him to to cause us to question what God has said, then sometimes we become we get entangled in that and we add our own things to it, and then it's it's totally confusing as to what God really did say. And so even I think readers um of the text, when you get right here, you'll want to go back, even though it's only the third chapter, you want to go back and say, What did God did he say if they if they touch it, they're gonna die? Yeah, I I don't really remember reading that, but anyway. Um and then he just flat out, he does what he's best at. The the serpent here says, You will surely die. You will not, you certainly not, you certainly will not die. And God has said you will die, but he says he just flat out lies. I mean straightforward. Okay. Did I jump ahead? I did jump ahead. No, you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I went through verse five.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

So starting at verse six, it says, When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they perceived that they were naked, and they sewed together fig leaves and made themselves loincloths. So obviously, I'm gonna want to discuss this at length probably near the end of the chapter. This is probably one of the last things we talk about, but I do think, you know, it's it's such human nature because what we find here is that Eve, again, has not been named yet. So the woman is acting not out of horrible motivations, right? It says that it's a source of wisdom, right? And is wisdom not something that any of us would want to desire, right? And she's looking and she's perceives that it's good to the eye and that it's desirable, and all of these, all of these positive attributes of the tree. And so she she takes and she eats and she gives it to her husband who has been named, which of course Adam is not a name, it's the Hebrew word for human.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

And so the human her husband eats, um, and it's then that their eyes are open and they perceive that they are naked. And it's it's interesting because she seemingly bases her desire for the tree and its fruit on her perception of it. And then we're immediately informed that her perception wasn't that good. Uh-huh. She didn't even perceive that she was naked. But we oft we see things through specific lenses. Uh-huh. And she was operating under one lens when she decided to desire the tree and its fruits. But then we see that her lens wasn't accurate because there was so much about the reality of her existence that she was missing.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Uh-huh. And one thing that I've that I like to call this tree, okay, is I call it I call it the tree of self-awareness. Okay. Because up to this point, Adam and Eve, the the human and the woman who is unnamed, they had only been aware, or they'd only been conscious of God. God would come into the cool of the day, come in and have communion with them. And that's what they were aware of. That's what they looked forward to, was God coming in. But once they ate of this tree, they became self-aware. And it was like they were they were turned inside out, is the way I like to call it before. They were spirit, soul, body. But as soon as they ate of this tree, it was like it was tr it was inverted. And now they are more about body, they realize their body is naked and not covered. Okay. And it's like it becomes body, soul, spirit. And so they went from being God conscious and a god reality to being self conscious and a self reality.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Yeah, that's fascinating. And then especially when you look at that in light of the fact that the punishments that they are going to have to bear as a result. Of their disobedience and their sin are body oriented. Exactly. They're they're punished in their flesh.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

That's so that's that's interesting. And we'll we'll talk more about those punishments in just a moment when we get there. But we find in verse eight it says, They heard the sound of God Yahweh moving about in the garden at the breezy time of day, and the human and his wife hid from God Yahweh among the trees of the garden. So there's so much in this one verse that is just frankly heartbreaking because I always use this analogy, but when when you're in a home or in any location at work, wherever, and you can identify someone coming strictly by the sound of them moving. Do you know how intimately you have to know that person? Right. Like in our in our home in Tifton, I remember as a kid being able to identify exactly who was approaching the room I was in by the footsteps. I knew Mama Golden's footsteps, I knew Michael Riley's footsteps, I knew your footsteps, dad's, mama's, sumners when he was overvisiting. Like I could immediately identify someone by how they move because of how much time I spent in the house with that that group of people. Right. It requires time and intimacy and close relationship for you to be able to identify someone just on the basis of how they move.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

And for the human and the woman to know who was coming for them, because God Yahweh always came to have relationship and communion with them at the same time, and he moved the same way, and so they could hear his movement and know that it was him. That just speaks to the intimacy and the connection that humanity enjoyed with the divine before this introduction of sin.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Exactly. And uh it doesn't take them long to realize we have lost communication with the Almighty.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

But what's so interesting is that the Almighty comes looking for the communication. And because he is omniscient, we know that he is aware that they've already messed up. He knows about their disobedience, he knows about their sin, but he still comes to the garden at the normal time of their standing appointment. He comes, they are the ones that are hidden. That's right. They have removed themselves and hidden themselves among the trees of the garden. And then we find the verse that I spoke about in the introductory episode that made me weep once when I read it. It says, God Yahweh called out to the human and said to the human, Where are you? And that just it always gets me because one thing that I love constantly throughout scripture, we find examples of Yahweh himself asking a question that he already knows the answer to. I mean, he can't ask a question that he does not know the answer to, but I love it when he does it in direct communication with humans where he'll ask them a question because the reality is does he need their verbal answer? No, but he gives humans the opportunity to be active participants in communication with him, right? He knows where they are, but it's more important that they get the opportunity to speak, right? That they say it directly instead of him just acting out of the knowledge that he has because he is omniscient and he knows all things, he gives them the opportunity to say it themselves, which I think is so interesting because God doesn't have to do that, but he chooses to do that because of the nature of the relationship that he desires with each of us. Right. He gives us the opportunity to speak on our own behalf. He does. So he calls out to the humans, Where are you? And Adam replies, I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid. Here's what's so interesting to me, too, is allegedly before they ate of the fruit, the biggest concern was that as soon as they ate of it, they would just die.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

They have survived. They know that they lived beyond eating of this fruit. So now their biggest fear becomes the divine retribution. Uh-huh. What is it that Yahweh is going to do to them because they have eaten of this fruit? And I it's interesting because there can't have been anything prior to this that would have made them conclude that Yahweh was vindictive or that he was going to delight in punishment or anything. So it's just interesting that they immediately after eating, they know that they've done something wrong. So their expectation is clearly a horrible punishment, a punishment that they fear so greatly that they hide themselves.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Yeah, and it does make you wonder what it was that caused them to feel like I've got I must go hide. Um, and it's the Father, Yahweh, is always inviting us to talk with him, to participate with him. What is amazing is as he calls out to them and asks where they are, then what he does is he um provokes them with a question that causes them to speak what it is that they're that they are so concerned about and why they're why they are hiding. And one of the things is when we get to have the experience with God, if we will remain with him and in his presence, he will ask us questions a lot of times that will make us uncomfortable. And as that question, as he asks it and we realize that there's something in us that needs to be changed, it's all out of love and relationship that he's doing that. And that's what he's doing, even right here, even though they have disobeyed him, even though they have gone against what he has said, he's wanting them to look at where they are and know that I'm I'm gonna take I'm gonna meet you right here, and I'm still taking care of you. I mean, this is this is such a a picture of what God is always doing on our behalf, he's always coming to us, always pursuing us, always trying to communicate with us, always trying to get us to see, and always us always knowing that he is going to take care of us. And you're gonna reveal in just a moment how he literally took care of Adam and Eve and in their situation. They're not dead, but they are naked.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Right. I think that it's I don't think that it's possible to read this chapter and view the behaviors of the human and the woman without like applying the lens of of them them seeming like small children. Exactly. Um, it seems like uh children that know that they've disappointed or upset a parent.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

And so, I mean, h how often is it true that we in childhood when we know that we've done something wrong, we we just go hide, we just remove ourselves from the situation. And the reality is that, you know, the the the relationship that Yahweh is the father has to us, his creation and his children is not unlike the relationship of a parent with a child. Of course, we call him the father for a reason. Um and the reality is oftentimes that you know when when we hide ourselves from our parents, our fear is worse than the actual facing of what it is that we have done. Um I'm trying to think of a specific instance in which I did that as a kid, and I really can't think of one. I'm sure that I was mean to Michael at some point and knew I was that she was gonna tell on me, so like I just went and removed myself. Um I'm sure that she has stories of of the reverse of that too.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Right. Um I I have an example. You do? Yeah, but I wasn't that I wasn't that young. I was 16 years old. Oh, okay. You're about to really tell on yourself. Yeah. Uh I I did have permission to drive, but I I was went down a uh road driving my mother's car that my dad had told me not to go down. When I went down that road, uh I was feeding on a South Georgia uh dirt road and I had a wreck. So what I immediately did, I climbed up out of the ditch from where I'd wrecked the car, went to a house. You would think I would call my mom, I'd call my dad. I was trying to figure out how I could cover this up. I called my sister. And I called my sister and she came to help me, and I was even on in the conversation with her, don't tell dad. I don't want dad to know this. Of course, dad had to know that, know it. So she got in touch with him, let him know that I was wrecked on this road. And so she and her husband get to me before my father does. But when my father gets to me, I'm thinking because I I was from home with some strict discipline. I really thought he was gonna come yanking that belt just I could just hear it coming out of the belt loops. I just I had this vision, that's what it that's what was gonna happen right there on that dirt road. I was just gonna uh uh get such a lashing. And so I looked at my dad and he looked down at the car and he looked at me, and there was something in his eyes that day that I knew there was not a whooping, I knew that that wasn't coming. I knew that he looked at me and he was so thankful that I was okay, and he wanted me not to be scared. So he did something that's kind of unconventional, but he had me get in that driver's seat, even though the steering wheel was all crazy and the gear stick was not crazy, he had me drive because he didn't want me to be afraid. He wanted me to to know that I can still drive and it's all gonna be okay. No beating, no whooping, no lashing. He was just so thankful and grateful that I was okay, and he wanted to make sure that I felt okay. And so that moment was just such a um like an epiphany, I guess, for me, when I saw where my father he subverted my expectations. He did not do what I thought he was gonna do, and he wanted to make sure that his daughter felt okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Mm-hmm. And that's that's a beautiful depiction of of the nature of the love that the father has for us, right? How often does he subvert our expectations? We as humans oftentimes want to estimate that he's gonna meet us in judgment or in anger when the reality is that he's just yearning for reconciliation with his children more often than not. And I think that you know it's it's not erroneous to say that he's he's relieved that we come to him and that we, you know, entrust our problems and our cares to him, and that, you know, he wants to meet us in the midst of those problems so that he can help alleviate them. Right. And so I I think that that's you know a very apropos comparison and story to share. I also think that it's it's a good thing that we've established this this lens of looking at them like little children, because what what Adam does here is he makes a confession without realizing that he's made a confession, which is something that anyone that's spent any amount of time with small children probably has an experience with. Because what happens here is Adam says that he heard God moving about in the garden and he was afraid because he was naked, so he hid. And God's like, Well, who told you that you were naked? Did you eat of the tree from which I had forbidden you to eat? And you know, how often does that happen that we make a confession without intending to make a confession? So Adam makes it clear that he is now aware that he is naked, and that is when Yahweh now within the conversation has the has the foot in to be like, Well, how did you come to this knowledge? Did you do the thing that I told you not to do? And the human immediately says, The woman you put at my side, uh-huh, she gave me of the tree, and I ate. So immediately, the human nature on full display, because how often do we want to obfuscate or refuse to take responsibility, even when we we ourselves have done something? Right. We want to point the finger and say, Well, they're the reason. Uh-huh. And here we see the human putting a little bit of the responsibility on God Himself, saying, You gave her to me. She came from you and she did this. So whose fault is that really? Like that's what that's the tone that I read from from the human here. And then immediately um uh God Yahweh speaks to the woman and says, What is this you have done? And the woman says, The serpent duped me and I ate. So there we have, we have duped, which I do think is I love the use of that verb there. So she blames the serpent. So here, you know, we have the human blaming the woman, the woman blaming the serpent. No one wants to say, Yeah, I did this. I did it. Yeah, I messed up. I did, I did the thing that I knew was wrong from the first place, and I'm sorry. And the thing is, that's I mean, we'll we'll talk about this, I'm sure, at great length one day, but you you can't really be repentant until you name what it is that you have done. That's right. And here, neither of them are in a position yet to name what they've done. They're still trying to to get out of the responsibility rather than claiming the responsibility that they earned. They they did the thing to and so um then we have God Yahweh speaking to the serpent, and God Yahweh gives the curses and the punishments to each of the individuals involved here. So he speaks first of the serpent, and he says, Because you did this, more curse shall you be than all cattle, and all the wild beasts on your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life. So we find here potentially an etiology of sorts for why snakes exist. You know, an etiology is a story within, you know, scripture or mythos or what whatever that explains why something in nature is the way that it is, right? So you can you can say that the flood narrative is an etiology for rainbows. Uh here we we have an explanation for why there are snakes, and also an explanation for why snakes and humans, specifically human women, tend to be at odds. Um there, you know, it's I'm not saying that they don't exist. There certainly are women that enjoy snakes and have them as pets or as a special interest or something, but generally speaking, you know, most humans don't enjoy snakes, especially human women, and we find that here because guys I am one of those.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

I'm not afraid of many things in life, but one of one thing I'm afraid of is snake.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

I don't know that I will say that I'm afraid of a snake. I don't enjoy a snake. I would never have a snake as a pet. I don't like being in proximity to them, but the what I feel when I look at a snake is nothing compared to what I feel when I look at a frog. I am absolutely hate frogs. Comprehend that they did catch frogs. Biblically, there's no explanation for that. He didn't put enmity between me and a frog, but they're the we are enemies, absolutely. Yeah, I I don't know. I think that snakes, something about their size, it's like I I can see them and I can be aware of them from a distance. But a frog, a frog is so small, and oftentimes it's really close to you before you notice it, and you can't you can't predict their next move. You never know what they're gonna do next or how high they're gonna jump or anything. And I just I have I have a whole story about a kindergarten trauma that we won't get into right now. I know why I'm afraid of frogs, actually, but it is it it's an entirely irrational fear, but we got way off track there. But it says God says that he will put enmity between the serpent, the snake now, and the woman, and between your offspring and hers, they shall strike at your head, and you shall strike at their heel. And to the woman, God said, I will greatly expand your hard labor and your pregnancies. In hardship shall you bear children, yet your urge or desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you. So thanks, Eve.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Um That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

I as a teenager remember asking you, uh, do you think that when we get to heaven we could just, you know, every woman just have like 30 seconds alone with Eve? And I don't think that theologically that that's good that that's correct or that that's gonna happen. Right. But it's it's a very tempting thought. I think that that every woman I know has a little bit of personal beef with Eve. Uh-huh. And what did I tell you?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

I think you you told me no, but like you wished that we did something something that we did.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

I love the opportunity, but I have to believe that any of us when we get there, we're not gonna be concerned about it. No, no, any of us probably would have done the same thing she did.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Yes, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

That's true. You know, but it it that does feel, you know, bring some satisfaction to see a line of women that you can get to get the slap in, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Um I do feel I do feel like you're you're right in saying that though, that like, I mean, realistically, that this is what had to happen, even even though, even though it was not the desire of God for sin to taint the human race, I mean, it was almost foreordained that that this would occur. And because of that, and we can talk about that at some point we'll talk about free will, we'll talk about foreknowledge and all of those good things, but the reality is that if if humans were going to exist and free will was going to be a thing, this was going to happen. And I do on some level feel badly for Eve because I do feel like she gets a really bad rep. She is the root of a lot of misogyny and sexism. Because people want to blame Eve for this when Adam was Adam was the one God communicated directly with, and Adam was supposed to be the the uh he was the one to whom this had been communicated, and he was the one who should have been enforcing what it is that God had commanded over himself and his wife or his household, however you want to define. Um I I I have a little bit of a of a pet peeve with people who want to use Adam and Eve as the foundation for marriage because I'm like, mm, marriage is a concept, does not exist.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Like this is it did not.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

But but we will refer to them as as being married because we don't have uh there's not an equal term for us to use. But uh I I do I feel I feel badly for Eve, and I do think that you're right that any human in that position would have done the same thing. We can we can claim that we wouldn't have, but we we've all fallen victim to temptation and to jealousy, and so we we're we're all susceptible to the same things, and and again, I don't think that Eve is is an excuse to have a negative view of of women or their place in relationships or society.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

And uh I I certainly don't think so, and I've actually known of I don't know, I'd probably call them cults, who have centered their almost whole existence, not on the lordship of of Jesus Christ, but on how women should be degraded and treated uh let's see, as third-class citizens because of Eve. And so uh and that that s uh makes me literally sick in my stomach.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

Well, what's incredibly interesting here and has to be pointed out is and you know, your your urge or your desire shall be for your husband. We we can get into the nitty-gritty of the Hebrew translation there and the the the husband ruling over her and what that means because it it doesn't mean exactly what it sounds like in English translation and what it has been taught to mean. It's not that Adam exists in lordship over her, it's that she's going to be reliant on him. That's what it that's what it truly means in the definitional sense here when it's talking about him ruling over her. It's not that he's in charge of her and every decision that is made in their household or anything, it's that his punishment is that he has to go work. Right. And so Eve is now going to be reliant on the work that Adam does. If Adam doesn't provide, then Eve likewise is going to suffer. And that's what that's what God is saying here in the punishment. But I think we we have to think about this critically and conclude that as a result of sin, as a result of humanity's fall, now is it being instituted that it will be perceived that man is above woman in the divine order of things. That was not something that existed prior to sin entering the picture. In the perfect divine plan of Almighty God, Eve was an Ezerkinegdo. She was a partner sent from God, meant to stand face to face and side by side. She was the completion for Adam. She was his other half. They were two halves of one whole. And there's no degradation within that. There's no subservience within that. There's there's mutual deference. There's I will defer to you and you will defer to me at times. We are partners in this life that we share. And so I think it's so interesting whenever people want to, you know, you use scripture as. A tool to bash women and to claim that women should always be subservient to men, when the reality is that that was a perceived order of things established by the fall. But under the new covenant of Jesus Christ, when the order of creation is restored and we can be in full right relationship with God Himself, there is no subservience. You know, there's neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. We are all one in Christ Jesus, and we all are equal. We stand face to face and side by side, not just with one another, but with Jesus Christ Himself. We are co-heirs with him and co-denotes equality. And I I am not presumptuous enough to claim that I should have equality with Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ in his infinite grace came and became equal with me. Right. He lived as a human. And so that's just such a beautiful thing. Am I allowed to say preach? Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

Preach.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

So I just think, you know, it's it's we I don't want to get entirely into this in our first episode, but as women in ministry, I mean, we we have to know that we've we've heard every excuse and justification in the book, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

And I have been told throughout my entire life of what I could not do because I'm because I'm a woman. Something I had no control over. Hearing the call of God, I did not give my heart to Christ until I was eight years old. But at three years old, I knew what I was putting earth to do. And my whole life I was told I couldn't do it. And so we'll we'll get into that, you know. Um, but it has been uh a lifelong being set free thing for me because uh I felt like I was in bondage based on what I was called to do. You know, not just in bondage to sin, but based bond in bondage because of the call of God on my life. And so that's something we will get into. I think it's interesting that with hard labor, she's gonna have children. With hard labor, he's gonna go out and make the living. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

So she's going to create life in hard labor and he's gonna make a living. Uh-huh. Yes, that's it. That's exactly um. But before we move on, though, before we move on, no, no, no, you're you're fine. I'm not not trying to make you apologize or feel any type of way, but I just wanted to say, specifically in response to what you've just said, I am very sorry that that has been your existence, but I'm eternally grateful that because you withstood all of that and you lived in the manner that you did in light of all of that, that I don't I I have never struggled with the call of God on my life because I'm a woman. I have struggled with how people are gonna perceive me, right? But I've never had to wonder or wrestle with is this real because I'm a woman, because I've seen it be real in the woman that I get to observe most closely. And so I think that that's a really incredible blessing for me to have had in life. And I don't say it to to be callous or to be haughty or anything, but genuinely my philosophy on it my entire life has been okay, if if you as an individual want to claim that I can't do what I'm called to do because of my gender, I'm trying really hard to be nice here because I can put this in some really frank terms that I'm not going to because I have the fruits of the spirit and I have self-control. You have some roots. Yeah, I'm rooted in the spirit and I have the fruit of the spirit. But if any human being wants to take issue with what it is that the Lord God has called me to do, their issue isn't with me, the called, their issue is with the caller. That's right. And that's something that they need they need to work out with him.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

And I I concur.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:53

All right, now that we've fully gotten into the You're going to have to talk about it, I gotta sling some tears here. Yeah, we both teared up a little bit during that. Um, but yeah, so we we see the punishment of Adam to Adam to the human God said, Because you did as your wife said, and ate of the tree, about which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it. Cursed be the ground, because of you. By hard labor shall you eat of it all the days of your life. Thorns and thistles shall it sprout for you, but your food shall be the grasses of the field. By the sweat of your brow shall you eat shall you get bread to eat, until you return to the ground. For from it you were taken, for dust you are, and to dust you shall return. So here we essentially see that Adam's punishment is not just that he has to work, but also that humans aren't going to live forever. That's right. That death has now entered the human race. God's original plan was not necessarily for us to know decay and death, but by virtue of sin, they have now tainted humanity. And then we find the human named his wife Eve because she was the mother of all living. We know that Eve's name means mother of all. Um I'm I won't I won't I won't wait into the Hebrew too much right there. We'll just we'll move on. But one one day we'll sit down and we'll we'll unpack this through the Hebrew lens specifically. And God Yahweh made garments of skins for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And God Yahweh said, Now that humankind has become like any of us, knowing good and bad, what if one should stretch out a hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever? So God Yahweh banished humankind from the Garden of Eden to till the humus from which it was taken. We get the nice little pun there of humus, human. It was driven out and east of the Garden of Eden there were stationed the cherubim and the fiery, ever-turning sword to guard the way to the tree of life. There there's so much like mythic imagery going on here. I do think that um as as someone who does identify as a text um a textual critic, uh, that I have to acknowledge that there's some things going on here that are kind of complicated for the average modern American evangelical Christian reader because who is it that God is looking like and he says that they've become like any of us? You know, there there are other divine beings present in this narrative. Are they just angelic beings or are they part of this divine council that seemingly exists in the early Old Testamental text? You know, we we find that in the very early writings of scripture that there seem to be these other divine beings that are not the equal of God but do exist like a rung below him on the pecking order of sorts. We find this in Job as well, you know, that he's surrounded by this divine council of sorts. And so I just think that that's something interesting to note. I would really like for us to do an episode eventually where we talk about the emergence of monotheism. When is it in scripture that it becomes apparent that there is but one God? Um, because obviously that exists in the book of Deuteronomy, but does it exist earlier than that? You know, we I would I would love for us to discuss that at some point because monotheism is something that the writers of the scriptural text are having to wrestle with at this point in time, because it's not it's not for for lack of a better term, the lingua franca, like it's not the expectation or the norm of any of the societies that these authors are existing in proximity to. No one else at this point in time in the ancient Near East is monotheistic. They don't just believe in one god, they believe in a pantheon of gods. But um, I it's also interesting and somewhat mythic to me here that the issue is that humans originally, you know, we often say in Christian theology, seemingly were intended to live forever, right? But they were not intended to have the knowledge of good and evil. Once they have that knowledge and evil has been introduced, now they cannot eat of the fruit of the tree of life lest they live forever. Because if they have the knowledge and the awareness, and they can live forever, then they would almost be co-equals with the divine beings. Right. Right? And I think that that's so interesting. Here we see that coequality with divinity is the worst thing imaginable, but we are made co-equals with the divine in the New Testament, which is very, very interesting to me. And that's something that we can kind of work to rectify maybe later on in a discussion. But it does, does it not feel a little like mythological to you right here? That it's like, well, we're worried that they could become our equals, so we have to do something so that the fiery, ever-turning sword is placed to guard the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

And I've always wondered, has anybody ever come across that?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:51

Feels like feels like a plot to uh an unproduced Indiana Jones.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

Exactly, that's exactly what it feels like. Um one thing you did read and that you commented on was you know, Dust Thou Art, to Dust Thou Shall Return, or what um I guess I was doing King James, but anyway, um and that is the physical death. But because they had been so uh God aware and now they're self-aware, that day they die in a different way. Okay, because they're banished from the garden, from the place where he would come down and be with him. And so many people never ever get to learn this. But the definition of death is separation. That's what that's what death means. To me, that's the most uh inclusive uh definition of death is separation. And so in this moment there is death because they're separated from that um that experience that that call of the day, as I call it, moments with God because communication has been broken, fellowship has been broken, so much is so much is now broken.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:13

And so, but hallelujah, so I feel like we've we've pretty well dissected the narrative, working through it, you know, chronologically as it unfolds. But there's two key moments and things that I've more or less skipped over because these are the things that I really am excited about and want to share. And so we what we find here and what what a lot of people I feel like do address from a pulpit specifically when they're talking about this chapter, is this introduction of the concept of nakedness as being symbolic of sin. Uh-huh. Right? That we want to cover the nakedness in order so that our sin will not be perceived. Right. Right. So I I know you have to have some things to say about that symbolism.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the quest becomes throughout the old covenant and all, I mean, the quest becomes we want to cover what we've done. Nobody wants to, nobody wants to be exposed. Everybody wants wants a covering. And so when they realized they were naked, they decided, well, I need to be covered. And that's when they began to string together the leaves. And I know you probably want to take that and talk talk about that. But um the thing is what they tried to do, when we try to provide for ourselves, it's gonna be something that is temporary that cannot last.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:49

I mean, I think you're exactly right that naturally wanting to cover is an innate part of the human experience. We see that here, right? Not not just physically, but verbally, that Adam and Eve, neither one want to acknowledge what they've done, right? They want to cast the blame on someone else and in doing so cover their own wrongdoing. And we see that constantly throughout scripture, right? That there's attempts of individuals to cover. Can you think of any?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:22

Uh yes, what one I want to that comes to mind right now is not only um do we try to cover sometimes our nakedness, we don't want to be exposed, we we want to be covered. You find, and this is one of the narratives that you talk about sometimes, is how um let's see, Noah's sons try to cover him. Okay, they do cover him, and um no one is comfortable with nakedness, no one is comfortable with exposure, and so um one of the things I'm thinking of right now is um and I I know you think of, well, she's gonna go to 1 Samuel, she's gonna go to 2 Samuel or whatever, is the um the story and the narrative of Mephibosheth. He had been dropped, he had something that um crippled him, something that he um he couldn't hide. He had been summoned to come before the king, and he thought coming before the king in a crippled manner, and we'll talk about that one day, um, in a crippled manner, he would be completely exposed and he would surely die. But what he found when he got in the presence of the king is because of covenant, that he could come to the king's table, and the thing that exposed him and showed that he was um didn't measure up, was covered when he slid up under the table of the king. And so, but throughout the old covenant, we find that we cover things and they can be covered. But when we are exposed and our sins are exposed, and we acknowledge our exposure and we say, Hey, I did this, then we can find that not only will it be covered, it will be eradicated, it will be removed from us. But there's always the human tendency to try to cover what's been exposed, especially if we think it's wrong and it's something that doesn't measure. No, nobody's comfortable with exposure.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:40

Yeah. The the example that I think of most readily is Peter, um, when Jesus is pursuing him beyond the resurrection. Exactly. We find we find Peter on a fishing boat in the precise location and vocation from which Jesus has already called him. Like Jesus has called him away from being a fisherman and told him he's going to be a fisher of men. Jesus has called him out of the boat already once to discipleship, to traveling alongside Jesus in his earthly ministry. And yet, in light of Jesus' death, Peter finds himself back where he's already been called from.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:20

And so he's on a fishing boat and he's stripped bare because he's been working all night. And then Jesus is on the seashore, and Jesus is recognized, and Peter goes to dive into the ocean to swim to the shore. And scripture specifically notes that he puts his garment back on. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't regularly put on more clothes before I go swimming. It makes the most sense for Peter to be stripped bare. But the way that I read that is Peter knows that he's about to be approaching the last person that he wants his sinful nature exposed to because he's denied him, he's forsook him, and now he's gone back to the life that he was living before him. And so there's all these things that Peter doesn't want Jesus to be able to see. And so he attempts to cover up. Even though it's counterintuitive, even though it doesn't make sense, he covers himself more before he approaches Jesus, which is so richly ironic because the reality is Jesus, just like Yahweh here in the garden, is already aware. We make these feeble human attempts to cover our nakedness, to cover our shortcomings, to cover our sin, to cover our shame, when the being that we're trying to prevent from seeing those things has already seen them.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:38

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:39

He's already perceived them and he's already loved us in spite of those things or even in the midst of those things. And so Peter tries to cover himself from Jesus when the reality is Jesus knows that Peter has denied, that he has forsook, that he has returned to something that is not no longer for him, and yet Jesus is waiting for him on the beach with breakfast already.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

That's true, that's true. That's so true. Um, one thing that just comes to mind as we're saying this, and I know we'll get back to the text, is I find so many people who cannot get free and get freedom in Christ because they can't expose to him their frailties, their shortcomings, their depression, their anger, whatever it is they're dealing with, uh, especially if they have an angry heart towards him, they cannot get freedom until they can talk to him about the thing that they've been trying to keep covered. And in that admitting and in that saying, I'm this, then he says, Oh, well, let me be this. Okay, and he takes and and removes that as far as a lot of times it's not necessarily sin, it's just uh it's shame, it's feeling ashamed, and that that comes with being naked, you know. Um you you f you feel shamed, and that's I believe that's what even though they probably didn't have the words to describe what they were feeling. I felt I feel like Adam, or I'm sorry, the human and the woman, I think they've they just felt total shame. And so they when they felt the shame, they thought, what will I do? I'll cover it. And so they did they tried to cover it the best way that they could.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:38

We we find their covering in the seventh verse and in the Hebrew rendering of chapter three. It says, Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they perceived that they were naked, and they sewed together fig leaves and made themselves loincloths. So the reality is, of course, that any attempt that we make to cover our sin, to cover our shame, it's only a temporary fix, right? That that is, of course, the issue with trying to clothe yourself with any type of leaf, is that well, that leaf is dead and it's going to decay and it's gonna dry up and it's gonna disintegrate. That's right. It's gonna fade away. And so as a result, the attempts of the human and the woman to cover their exposed sinful nature, it it cannot last. And that's the reality for us as humans, right? Is we can make all the attempts in the world to try to cover what's really going on in our hearts and in our minds and in our spirits, but those coverings are only temporary. And not only those personal, like individual attempts to cover, but we find this throughout the old covenant, right? That the attempts to cover sin are only they only last for a temporary amount of time. They're not an all-encompassing, all-inclusive covering.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:03

And so we, within our own might and our own power, left to our own devices, we cannot cover our sin. We can distract from it temporarily, but that distraction is going to disintegrate, it's not going to last permanently.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:19

Oh, I want to just add this. Umce those leaves are separated from the life source, okay, those leaves immediately begin to die. Yeah, they're already dead when they're clothing. That's right. And so they have taken something away from its life source and they're stringing it together to cover themselves. Okay. This is a picture of what's happened to them too. They have been separated from the life source, and they have begun to die. Okay. And so I've never really just seen it like that. I've always I've even taught about the, you know, once it's detached, it's dying. So they're covering themselves with something that's that's fixing to dry out and fall apart. But they themselves are detached and dying. They're themselves are detached and dying and falling apart.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:15

And so, and so I I think that you know, it we we have to point it out that it's very rarely are things in scripture described with such specificity as this here, that we know for a fact that it is fig leaves. And this, of course, is why we began this episode with reading those verses from the Gospel of Matthew, where Jesus, in the final week of his life, approaches a fig tree and recognizes that the tree has many leaves, but no fruit. That's right. And then he curses the tree and it withers and dies. And I think that it cannot be. By accident or coincidence or happenstance, that the specificity is the same, that it's a fig tree, that it's fig leaves, and that it is leaves that is the cause of Christ cursing this tree, right? Because there's so many leaves, but there's no fruit. And so I can't help but in my eisegesis, in my reading the text through a specific lens, I perceive it as Jesus in his last week of life, knowing that he is going to give his body and his blood as the all-sufficient atoning sacrifice that will cover all sin and shame permanently. The thing that will override all of the temporary fixes that have been used throughout human history from this moment in the garden. He is going to fulfill everything so that those temporary fixes are no longer necessary. He is going to be the one sacrifice that covers absolutely everything. And on his way to do that, he notices these fig leaves. And he essentially is saying humanity is going to have no need for this anymore. Their own attempts have been feeble, they've been meager, they have not been able to do the the entire work of once and for all covering and rectifying the wrong of all of humanity. But I am going to do that now. And so he curses these fig leaves and they wither because the fig leaves, I mean, the fig leaves were going to wither here in Genesis. They weren't going to last forever. And now he's saying, I go to be the sacrifice that will last forever. And we see his sacrifice typified here in Genesis 3, because we find that God in his infinite grace and infinite mercy doesn't leave them unclothed or clothed with their horrible attempt with fig leaves, but it says specifically that God made garments of animal skins, of skins for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the reality, of course, is that animal skins last longer.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:24

Right? They're not, they're not going to disintegrate as readily or as eagerly or quickly as these fig leaves would. But in order for animal skins to create a lifelong covering for Adam and Eve, something had to die. Right. Some blood had to be shed. And I truly see this as the first true type symbol of Jesus Christ in the biblical text. Right here in Genesis 3, from the very inception of sin in the human race, we see the antidote to sin, which is the shedding of innocent blood.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:59

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:00

And the shedding of that innocent blood provides the true propitiation, the permanent covering for that shame.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:08

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins. There's no payment for sin without the shedding of blood. And that I I've I believe that is the first picture uh recorded of what's going to take place. And so um and what he covers with there. It lasts much longer than the fig leaves, but it's speaking as a testimony.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:38

But even even the animal skin doesn't necessarily last forever. But the one sacrifice that truly lasts forever is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:52

We'll talk more at length about the animal sacrifices throughout the old covenant and how they were so so temporary. Um question. Because you know, we don't have to know this. This is one of those things that people just toss around, well, what was the fruit that they ate?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:14

Or are you gonna ask if it could be a fig?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:16

I'm just gonna ask, is that what you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:21

I this is such a cop out of an answer, but I truly don't think about it. I don't I think that if it mattered, it would be in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:29

Right. I I I agree. It's just with them grabbing something and stringing it together, it makes you wonder, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:36

If it was the leaves from that very tree. Right. Um, I hope it wasn't asai fruit, because then I definitely would have would have given in and done what Eve did.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:45

You would have thought it was good.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:46

Yeah, it would have been pleasing. Desirable eye pleasing to the eye. Yeah. Um but I do think um, since since we're now talking about the leaves, and since you know we began with discussing those those two verses from Matthew chapter 21, um I'm trying to think of how to pose this delicately because again, I I don't want to come across as condescending. I I hope that I'm communicating that everything that I'm saying that's at all critical or trying to um you know say say anything, anything that I am saying that seems critical to the modern church, I am saying strictly trying to bring about introspection and change for the improvement of the modern church, right? Obviously, my heart is for Christ's church, but I do think that it has to be acknowledged that modern American evangelical Christians sometimes we are we ourselves, and I I will put myself in it, can become like the tree that Christ curses on his way to Jerusalem because we are so concerned with how we are perceived and what something looks like rather than the actual fruit that it is bearing. Because the reality is with very vibrant and green leaves, right? A tree can look very promising and very desirable, but the tree's not serving its actual purpose if it's not bearing fruit.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:24

That's that's true. And you've heard me say time and time again that I believe as Jesus was walking uh to to Jerusalem and he passes by the tree, I think he may have been hungry and he may have been thirsty. And so he sees ahead a tree and he sees all the leaves. And he thinks when I reach that tree, I'll be able to reach in and grab a fig. If I eat that fig, it's gonna satisfy my thirst because it's figs are usually juicy. It's gonna satisfy my hunger because figs are usually meaty. So when I get there and I reach in, I'll get what I need to satisfy my thirst and my hunger. And he gets to the tree. It looks like it's one thing, but when he reaches in and pulls back the leaves, there's nothing there. There's nothing of substance, there's nothing that can that can help him. And I think that typifies so many people, so many quote unquote Christians, because so many times we're more concerned with how we look on the outside than what is actually on the inside. And that week Jesus had his stomach full of hypocrisy. And that's what that tree represents to me, is hypocrisy. And so I've, you know, I used to be like, well, why did the tree have to die? Because nobody explained it to me. You know, why did it have to be cursed? It's because it was representing something that it was not. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:01

And how how often does the modern church fall victim to that? Where we're so concerned with the trappings and the dressings and what something looks like and what it is perceived as rather than what is truly going on in the heart or or in the spirit. And I think this goes back to something we talked about in our introduction, which is, you know, that the reason that we wanted to call this good fruit, good root, is we really want to emphasize the importance of the fruits of the spirit. That's right. Because we feel uh especially passionate about the fact that the modern American evangelical church is so keen to emphasize the operation of the gifts of the spirit. But the reality is that the gifts can be an operation, but what does that really say about the heart and the spirit of the people that the gifts are operating through? Because the gifts are without repentance. That's right. I have seen it from personal experience that individuals can operate in the spiritual gifts, but their spiritual life can be fairly barren. Right. And the reality is if there's not fruit being born in their spiritual life, then I'm a lot less interested in what it is that they or their ministry have to say. Because we this is something that we've said a lot recently in conversations with one another. The operation of the spiritual gifts tells me something about the spirit. Right. But you being able to bear the fruits of the spirit in your life actually does tell me something about you. Right. It tells me that you are partnering with the Holy Spirit, that you are putting in the personal work that is required of you to become more like Christ every day and to operate under the leadership of the Holy Spirit. So I'm a lot more impressed when in a moment of crisis you act with gentleness than I am impressed if you can stand up and speak in tongues in the middle of a service. And that's not to degrade or discredit the operation of the spiritual gifts. But we we as a church, as a denomination, as a movement, have seemingly forsaken the role of the fruits of the spirit in the pursuit of the gifts of the spirit. And you can have all the gifts, all the leaves, all the pretty dressings that you want, but if you're not bearing like the reason a tree exists is to produce fruit. Right. And so if you've got foliage but no fruit, then that's it's it's a sad testament to what's going on in your spiritual life.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:43

It we are actually saying what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 13. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I'm just a bunch of noise. I can do all these words, I can prophesy, I can do all of this, and it absolutely means nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:10

Yeah, if you don't if you don't have love, if you don't have joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, if you can't operate in those things, then I mean what what's the point? Is there any sincere heart conversion going on?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:26

You don't get there, that the gifts are gonna remain. Okay, and what I mean by people hear me out, it says now they're abideth, they're remained. What remains is faith, okay? Faith, hope, and love. Okay. You have fruit that remained. You have fruit is what is going to remain. And the gifts continue to operate, absolutely. The gifts continue to operate.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:57

But when it's all said and done, well, the the more excellent way is through love. Right. It's not through any of the nine gifts of the spirit that are explicitly laid out in scripture, it's through love. And so uh I mean, the the the cry and the desire of my heart is that the church would come to be known for fruit, not foliage. Right. Because I mean that's what that's that's what Christ is dealing with here. He's saying all these leaves mean nothing. Exactly. So all right, is there anything you want to say about the text before we we close out with our weekly segments? I think we've covered it pretty well. We've covered it. The thing is we could return to it and do another few hours on it, I'm sure. Absolutely. And um, all right, so weekly segments, niece. Yes, do you have a God wink of the week?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:52

A god wink of the week. Uh I think I do. Okay. Um, and I've I've thought that my God weeks would kind of sometimes be humorous, but I don't really think this one is that humorous, okay. But um, as you know, uh our young people just got back from camp. And there were specific things that I have prayed for a long time. And specific prayers that I prayed when I walked through the halls of this church about children and young people. And when they came back with some testimonies, and I really think they came back with some fruit that's going to remain. And um I feel like God just kind of gave me a big wink as they were sharing yesterday about the things that took place at camp and uh uh how the Spirit of God moved through and upon our our even our smallest children, and how some of some of them were tarrying for 30 minutes after everybody was at the concession stand. That's what I did as a child. I just felt like when I heard that testimony, uh I felt like God gave me a wink of what He still plans to do right here in this body. And so that's that's that's my God wink for the week.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:16

Okay, all right. So you're you're gonna leave it to me to try to inject a little bit of humor. I'm sorry. I don't know, it's I've never been this weepy, but this podcast makes me. Yeah, you weep. You have been pretty, pretty weepy. We'll have to see if this becomes a trend if you're just gonna cry. You know me. Uh-huh. You're you're you're becoming a little bit more like your husband here with all the tears. Um that's that's I it's awesome to see the testimony and the reality of what it is that God has done in the lives of these young people and what I sincerely believe he's going to continue to do. Uh so I, because you're doing, you did Godwink this week, I'm gonna do Priceless Pulpit. Um and, you know, I just kind of feel like I gotta continue with the trend that I established last episode. Um last episode I told the story about Jayla forgetting her name. So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell another Jay Light story, um, which is one day uh at the beginning of of every kids' church service, I would ask if, you know, anyone had any praise reports. And so, you know, we we we would sometimes have like really awesome praise reports about like, you know, I I had a student that was battling cancer, and you know, she would she would be able to testify when she'd had a really encouraging report from the doctor or a good weekend of treatment or whatever the case may be. Um, you know, we had kids that their parents were going through divorces and they were able to testify about, you know, the goodness of God that had been revealed to them that even though their their parents were separating, that God was still right there with them in the midst of whatever situation they were dealing with. And then Jayla proudly raises her hand and I'm like, Yeah, Jayla, what's your praise report? And she goes, I remembered to button my pants today. And I was like, Yep, the Lord and I are both very proud of you, Jayla. We'll give him praise for that, for the fact that you remembered to button your pants today. So Jayla was one more character. She was, she was one of a kind, and and every every student that I was able to pour into at that specific church really, really was. And in due time, I'm sure that that listeners will will hear about all of them. So I think that that pretty much wraps it up. What do you think? I I believe it does. So so props to you, listener, if you've if you've made it this far. We eventually we'll we'll hopefully settle into somewhat of a rhythm, and maybe we won't talk at this great of a length, but maybe we will. I mean, we we need to hear from people what it is that they they want this to be. So so definitely reach out, leave us a review, reach out to us on social media, let us know your thoughts and your opinions, um, and we will be back.